Mikey98118

Burners 101

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5 hours ago, Frosty said:

Seized up solid and I don't know why, she'd only been sitting idle a week or so. 

Soft plug gave way?

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Just now, Mikey98118 said:

Soft plug gave way?

Do you mean a freeze plug? Nope, it was maintaining all fluid levels, charging and the battery was charged. Before I sprayed the cylinders with CRC I probed with a piece of cotton twine to see if anything had leaked in, checked out dry. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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That would have made an interesting mystery for a teenager to solve; but it was at the right point for a wise man to cut losses.

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Yeah and the TBI makes this kind of thing too much of a challenge on a good day.

Frosty The Lucky.

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I hated auto repair when I was young and whole; only poverty drove me too it; not mystery :D

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I did it because I wanted a hot car but couldn't afford much so I bought what I could afford and built what I could. It's a Southern California thing maybe. I was just never very good at it, I could get by just not very good.

Frosty The Lucky.

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What I wanted with a car makes every father of daughters grind teeth; fortunately for all concerned, my old junker took up all my money and time for two years. By the time I traded it away, "getting ahead" had become my goal :rolleyes:

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My parents made us work if we wanted spending money so Shannon and I had jobs since we were 8 for me, I think 9 or so for Shannon. By time I was old enough to buy a car I had money in the bank and only needed to get old enough for a good job. Boy was my first car a education, like any kid I had zero idea how expensive a car really is. Buying it is the easy part, I had to cover how much me driving drove up the folk's insurance, fuel maintenance, etc. Ain't cheap I scraped to own my first couple. 

I couldn't afford to date, I had a car. <sigh> 

Frosty The Lucky.

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On the other hand, there were all those guys who's parents gave them last year's muscle car to run down to Disneyland for with dates, who ended up with shot-gun weddings at the ripe of age of eighteen in my high school,  to look back at. Being a poor boy ain't always so bad :rolleyes:

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On 4/20/2018 at 8:10 AM, Mikey98118 said:

On a lighter note, I have spent about three years looking for the answer to why the flame would help induce intake air.

I don't have any fancy words for this and you and Jerry have gone over this in depth. However could this be similar to how a backdraft in a house fire acts to draw in oxygen?

once the fire has consumed all the oxygen the fire stops but the heating continues and will either burn out or suck in more oxygen. (at this point if you open a source of oxygen you get a boom) 

If the heat in our forge fully consumes the air induced through the burner then in those split seconds it needs a gasp of air to keep the flame itself going would that not cause the forge itself to draw air through the burner mount? 

I could be way off or just repeating what you guys have said. I have only spent moments trying to understand this small portion but it intrigued me. 

I just watched a documentary on blackholes and they were talking math way beyond my scope but I couldn't help thinking that there were similarities with how forges and burners move particles around. Now if only I could figure out how a black hole works I'm sure I can get this burner dun up good ;)

 

If this adds nothing to what has already been said there is no need to repeat what has already been said it is just how my brain wants to invision the mechanics of it. 

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NO, not if the burner's tuned. The propane primary pressure driving down the center of the mixing tube creates low pressure that induces combustion air in the ports. While a low pressure zone IS drawing combustion air it's not really the same thing. Back draft is more about what and how the vacuum is made to draw conbustion air, it's not the same cause. Same effect though. . . sort of. 

Some types of sputtering is a back draft effect but Ive never seen it happen to the forge itself.

Good question, it's not going to be long and you'll be explaining how burners whrk and answering questions for us.;)

Frosty The Lucky.

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It is important  to remember that the burner, and its flame, are located near the entrance to a hole in the forge body; this gives access to outside air. The flame makes a reasonably strong force blowing gases into the burner--near this hole; this induces plenty secondary air through the hole, and into the forge; enough to seriously lower forge temperatures, if the amount of secondary air isn't limited. This is done by induction, in a similar manner to air induction within the burner, but is a separate process.

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14 hours ago, Frosty said:

a low pressure zone IS drawing combustion air

Kind of like I've read from you before when you said that nature abhors a vacuum so it rushes to fill it, in this case it does so with air.

 

11 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

a similar manner to air induction within the burner

So instead of a stream of propane inducing air into the burner the burning gasses induce air into the forge body.

 

I think I am starting to be able to get a good visual in my head with this stuff. Reading and following instructions is great but I like to understand first so if I run into a hiccup I can work around it. Both your points of view in this really compliment one another and make it easier to form an image even during the times you disagree.

Two more questions both of which I have not seen a "measurement" for here.

1: After insulation, ridgidizer and KOL how much wiggle room should there be between my burner nozzle and the insulation/KOL. 1/16"-1/8" creating another "step" and then stuff the mounting tube from the outside with scraps as needed?

2: A nozzle is used to reduce pressure so that the gasses can slow down enough to not blow off the end of the burner when lit. This would cause the flame to burn inside the nozzle a bit "holding" the flame.... I believe I read that the flame starts inside the nozzle (somewhere here can't remember the page) but how far in should that be or should it be hanging off the end of the nozzle? Does the flame still technically start at the end of the mixing tube and the nozzle literally "hold" the flame in place and that's why nozzles become consumables?

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You are making a common beginner's mistake and seriously overthinking this stuff. The difference between 1/16" and 1/8" annulus (gap) between the burner and shell is insignificant. Moving the burner 1/8" - 1/4" more or less deep in the liner will adjust inducing extra combustion air more than that difference in annulus. JUST like moving the nozzle (Mikes method) or the jet (My method) of adjusting the induction ratio hence fuel air ratio. 

I do NONE of that with: calculations, psi gauges, flow meters, thermocouples . . . anything but eye and ear.

Frosty The Lucky.

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I guess to simplify the question regarding gap between the burner and shell would be

"how big of a hole do I make/leave"  

Once I have the insulation in, hole cut, ridgidized, coated with castable should my step nozzle JUST slip inside the hole or have decent wiggle room? 

I guess I over technicalified my question, I just don't want to line the forge and cast it just to find out I made the opening too small. Too large and I can always add a little more refractory I guess. 

The second question would simplify to 

"does the flame start inside the step nozzle or hang off the end" mine looked as though it started inside a bit, the depth changed depending on the mixing tube length and psi. 

FWIW I don't have a fancy calculator nor would I know how to use it yet. I've just been trying to ask my questions more technical so you guys don't have to try and guess at what my idea of "wiggle room" equates to that's all. :)

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On 6/29/2019 at 11:02 AM, Frosty said:

Oh, do you have a name or nickname we can call you?

Sorry I just reread this. I don't know how to edit this in my profile but Trevor works.

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Don't worry, Mike and I speak "wiggle room" and don't take it as a mistake, you're just doing what most of us did when we started out.

Editing your profile is as easy as scrolling to the top of the page and selecting your log in name next to the Avatar. Select "profile" from the menu that opens, select "Edit" make any changes or just add your name so those of us with tree dented brains can look when we forget and save.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Ok name changed ;), check. I`ll leave my burner entry with a little wiggle room and add more refractory later if it's too loose, check. Sorry no pic small enough for an avatar yet but I`ll get'er figured though. 

 

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1 hour ago, Trevor84 said:

Ok name changed ;), check.

Okay, I'll check. . . Ayup, sure did! :)

I forgot what I did to make the file size small enough for my Avatar and the forum crops it automatically too. I know I changed it around a bunch before I got both me and the moose in the shot.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Ok first flame Pic! Thoughts and suggestions. 3/4 burner 8" tube 1 1/4 nozzle 10Lb force!

 

Thanks Swadly

IMG_1028.jpg

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That is not a perfect flame, but is a mighty hot flame, and it is a large flame, which isn't an easy trick with this small a burner size. Could the flame be improved? Maybe, but the question to ask is do you need some thing more than you have? Only running it in a forge can tell you that.

Sometimes, the search for perfection is the enemy of all that is practical. Frosty taught me that lesson. While you think it over, lets discuss your burner's flame retention nozzle, 'cause  I suspect a lot of the burners performance is do to it. The taper is larger than standard; did you make it yourself? How much larger is it's inside diameter to the inside diameter to the tube? How did you form it? All the others will want to know too :D

Ups! I misread your description of its size, but it is still a very hot flame.

It would also be helpful for your imitators to see the rest of the burner :)

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I ordered it from the place you referenced in a earlier thread id at flare is opening is 1 1/4" id at start is 1 1/8". OD of burner tube is 1" burner tube id 3/4"

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Thanks for the update. I have the nozzle sitting by my computer, and haven't tried it myself yet. I only knew that it was well enough made to be worth mentioning. And the yest of your construction details? :)

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Ok I will take picture of complete burner Wednesday when I get back to shop!

 

Thanks Swadly

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The forgotten burner

The Riel burner, shown on his burner pages ( freely available online), is one of the easiest and cheapest design to build. When the MIG tip modification shown on his pages is added, it remains one of the hottest burner designs around too :)

I hope that people who follow my advise on burner designs don't confuse them for the only good path to burner construction. There are several ways to build a very fine burner; my druthers may not be yours.

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