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Burners 101


Mikey98118

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Frosty,

It isn't gambling when you own the dice, in every sense of the word. However, we have at placed a toe over the line into religion, which, like politics and sex.turns divisive far too easily. I for one will back off at this point. Heard any good crud missile jokes lately?

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Becuse he left the road?

Frosty wrote on another thread "I just wish there was a better off the shelf something than a plumbing T to make the things with. I'd jump on something as easy to adapt that was as or more efficient."

There is something; and it involves a second look at linear burners. I agree with your view that linear burners are generally colder burning than jet ejectors. However I've seen enough exceptions to hold that view loosely. The problem is that we are far from understanding all we know about burners. If the last 120 years of burner improvements are considered, I don't think a bachelors degree in combustion engineering is much help either.

All this to say that it seems keeping a sharp eye on what is observed, is the best tool for designing anything new. The first burner I was introduced to was a standard linear burner; it was the easiest burner for most people to construct, and so, after more than thirty years, it may still be the most often chosen design by newbies. It may also be a perennial favorite because it is so easy to change.

The one change that does most for flame efficiency is an inline gas jet, but the change that does most for easing construction (and for tuning) is a flat bar saddle across the reducer fitting's large opening. Of course we all want the changes we adopt to improve the flame; not just construction issues, so here is what I STRONGLY suspect: When the flat bar used in the "U" shaped saddle is wider than we think convenient, it promotes spin in the incoming air, beyond what is normally generated; that small additional spin is so good for burner performance, that it is more important than the added convenience of construction and ease of tuning.

Since I admit that it is no more than a belief on my part, what backs it up (at least in my mind)? A performance jump above the expected level in a couple of what I usually classify "junk burners" for which I can find no other explanation. Still, the construction details in these burners leave a lot of latitude in their particulars. I like gas pipes with external thread, but others may prefer set screws in tubing parts.

But why a linear burner after all these years? Lately some of us have been rethinking what we had thought we knew about  what it takes to create very hot flames. There is likely to be a whole lot of experimenting needed before we end up at a higher plateau of understanding about what is actually going on with air burners. Linear burners are the easiest kind to change; they make natural test beds for flame balance experiments.

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When I think of burner design it reminds me of what has been going on in the American car market. The first hundred years, produced cars and roads that both struggled to transition from funky motorized wagons to legitimate machines on modern highways. twenty years ago burners; kind reminds me of old cast iron wasp waist burners With the proliferation of modern fuel gases in the fifties. burners paralleled cars of the fifties; over weight and under powered. The sixties saw powerful engines and some reduction in vehicle weight in an effort at efficiency. Burners started being designed for power and efficiency twenty years back. Today more cars than not are becoming what old birds like me think of as downright exotic in their engineering, and the latest crop of burners and forges are too.

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On 1/29/2017 at 2:42 PM, Mikey98118 said:

Another look at gas accelerators

"Accelerator" is my term for the gas tube, and wire feed welder (MIG) contact tip that serves as a gas jet; Together they become a gas accelerator assembly for your burner. The gas tube is just as important as the gas jet, when it comes to exchanging the potential power of compressed gas into kinetic energy to power the induction and acceleration of air molecules in the gas/air mixture being mixed together and pushed at high speed down the mixing tube, and into the flame nozzle.

I originally used a schedule #40 1/8" pipe nipple, with one threaded end cut off, to use as gas tubes; it needed  a spacer to narrow its inside diameter down enough to hold 1/4-28 thread for a Tweeco MIG tip. This not only required silver brazing to hold the internal spacer, but gave a large area for the gas to squeeze down enough to enter the MIG tip's orifice. The advantage of this part, was that it was easily found at your local hardware store.

Larry Zoeller, bless him, changed the original gas tube out for a  #80 1/8" pipe nipple that is small enough inside to take 1/4-28 thread directly tapped into it. Obviously you are trading ease of purchase for ease of construction in this part change. But you are also increasing efficiency of the burner in this bargain. My original gas tube needed to be 4" long to work. Zoeller's gas tube can be 3" long and still work better than mine.

Tweeco tips aren't the only brand of MIG tips, or even necessarily the best tips to use; just remember that other brands may have different thread, and see that your drill bit and thread tap match them. A schedule #40 gas tube requires a minimum length of 1-1/2" on the MIG tip. A schedule #80 gas tube only requires a minimum 1" long MIG tip.

Finally, 1/4-27 IP (Iron Pipe, or IPS for Iron Pipe Standard) parallel outside thread is only important for linear burners (which employ reducer fittings).

Mikey,

I have spoken to suppliers in three states within 150 miles of me and no one carries schedule 80 pipe. Do you know of a supplier that will sell just a couple nipples on line without having to buy case lots?

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Amazon sells them too. I couldn't find them locally so that where I ordered. I bought 4 for about $3 each because I was planning on making 3 burners (a 1/2" & 3/4" for myself and a 1/2" for iron in the hat). That gave me one extra to screw up. 

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I didn't know about Amazon; thanks. There are other online sources as well, but Amazon is a comfortably familiar  source for many.

  "...I was planning on making 3 burners (a 1/2" & 3/4" for myself and a 1/2" for iron in the hat). That gave me one extra to screw up."

But, what kind of burners; all the same kind? I'm just as interested in one design as another. 

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"Cheap and easy" flame nozzles are VERY limited

If you position your burner tangentially in a forge (or casting furnace), you don't need to employ a flame nozzle; this is fortunate for people who use small threaded reducer fittings as flame nozzles, since their effective length to width ratio cannot be adjusted; and therefore they are of no value inside the forge; they are only of value in testing a burner out in the open air; but even than, their inability to help tune the flame limits their utility.

Should we all avoid them? No; they have legitimate uses; one of which could end up being a cheap and easy way to mount ceramic nozzles on burners. Just don't expect Formula One performance out of a ""Model "T"; that ain't in the cards.

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I sourced my schedule 80 BP 6" nipples from the local Fastenal in 2010 when I was fabricating my two 1/2" Mikey burners.  Had to be shipped in from the warehouse in a 10 pack... still have a few.  Forgot the cost... cost was not important.

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Ok I am working on photos.. however, in the interim, here is a link to a thread (pertaining to a Freon tank build) to which I contributed.. my userid is jorasco312... see posts #10, 15  & 17 for photos of my forge and a couple of my Mikey burners... sorry, it was forge build, not a how to fix my burners, so no photos of it in operation. still working on finding photos:     http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/freon-tank-forge.920575/ 

just cut and paste the link..

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After much searching I have determined the following:  I built  the two Mikey burners and my Freon tank forge in 2010, posted photos in the above mentioned thread in 2012, had a hard drive crash or two, bought a new computer, restored a backup, lost my photo editor when I upgraded the OS and realized finally that I was interested in the build but did not need photos of the burners in free air.... so, below is the photo of the burners in action in the forge. the original photo is 1.4MB's, a little large to post here, so I manage to shrink it a little..   Bottom line - no photos in free air...

2 brick forge 002 (Small).jpg

 

 

And now my 1/2" Mikey Burners

Half Inch  Hybrid Burners (Small).jpg

 

The forge was built to forge in, not weld... however, it is plenty hot...I can easily move wrought iron.

Any suggestions on ambient light for flame photos?  completely dark, dusk?

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On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 5:05 PM, Mikey98118 said:

Something about fans and vortical flow:

1) If you create a circular motion in a liquid or gas it creates vortical flow.

(2) If you pass a liquid or gas through a circular constriction ut will create votical slow.

In a vortex burner both effects are deliberately combined to create maximum vortical flow without forward force, as--in these burners--forceful airflow is not wanted.

 

Hello gentleman, new to the world of metallurgy, forges, foundries and everything else in between.

I will say I'm somewhat of a research nut and might ask an ignorant question or two, here and there but always in search of educated knowledge and wisdom.

Haven't read the entire thread, (yet) but when I read Mikes comment about the "Vortical Flow" subject I had an idea which may or may not be an overlooked key factor to achieving such a desired effective.

Wondering it the rifling as such that of a rifle barrel were utilized, would it create the desired effect which you all are thinking of?

Maybe ID rifling to a certain point within the burner rail but not to the very end where it meets the flare?

Has anybody ever attempted this and if so what was the outcome?

Idk, just thinking out loud and wanted to throw it out there.

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Randy,

Sorry for the slow reply. After a week of not allowing me to sign in, the program finally decided, that I would be allowed to use my emall address after all!

Dusk or  heavy shadow is best for flame photos.

Idk,

No; vortical flow is created by a fluid or gas passing  down a decreasing round shape, such as a funnel, or reducr fitting. Riffling will cause spin, which is one element of vortical flow; not the sum of it. Nevertheless, your idea isn't without merit. Some oxy-fuel torches use short twisted vanes in their mixing chambers to swirl oxygen and fuel gas into a flammable mixture in a short distance, allowing friction in the passage of that mixture through the goose neck to stop the spin before the mixture enters the torch tip.

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Welcome aboard IDK, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the Iforge gang live within visiting distance. But if you don't WDK where you are and can't invite you to BBQs and such. ;)

I'm a big fan of vortices but Mike has been experimenting, I haven't so I just read along and keep quiet. . . mostly.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Good morning gentleman & Thanks for the welcome Frosty.

Not to derail this thread but I do have a serious question along the same lines of topic.

It seems apparent that 99.9% of all the propane set ups I've seen on the net do not utilized a inline check valve or flame arrest on their feed supply lines from their tanks.

Is this just due to ignorance, lack of safety awareness or is it just not need for that type of set up???

 

Now I'm going to keep my mouth shut, continue reading all the wonderful info you folks have provided, (was totally confused for the most part prior to coming across IFI),

and learn a thing or 2.

One other thing, I'm just as guilty being one of the "If it can be improved crowd, I'm going to modify it, or at least try", so I'll try to keep my inexperienced comments to a minimum but will seek out you folks thoughts from time to time.

 

 

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Well any propane setup that does not involve pressurized oxygen does not need a flashback arrestor as flame cannot propagate without oxygen in PROPANE.  ACETYLENE can exothermically dissociate even without the presence of oxygen and so ABSOLUTELY requires  a flashback arrestor.

Now as you notice over 99% of the propane burners mentioned here do not involve pressurized O2 and so not needed is the correct selection, (or ignorance of the poster.)

 

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Thomas is correct. This safety device has zero value unless you are using an oxy-fuel torch, and is only worthwhile even then if your torch is in bad shape, or is run on very low pressures--so long as you obey the other safety rules; it has no utility at all on an air-fuel burner.

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