Mikey98118 Posted June 7, 2017 Author Share Posted June 7, 2017 the Ins & Outs of Basic Flame Nozzles Tapered flame nozzles are supposed to have a 1:12 (one to twelve) increase in area hammered into them; this works out to be about the same amount of distance as the wall thickness on a schedule #40 pipe, in approximately 1-1/2" of its length. Wow; not a lot of increase is it? How can this little bit possibly do so much to affect flame function? A tapered nozzle sets over (outside of) the burner's mixing tube, so that it can slide back and forth, thus changing the length to width ratio of the area of overhang of that nozzle, beyond the mixing tube. Is there a little itch in the back of your mind, about the preceding paragraph? Good; there should be, since I seem to have switched subjects in mid stream. That was done to illustrate a point, which is that people keep failing to include the thickness of the nozzle's wall in their calculations; it doubles the amount of increase in diameter, and therefore width, that the nozzle provides. S0 all you have to do to design a stepped nozzle is start by providing a spacer ring to run back and forth on the mixing tube. I used the next size schedule #40 pipe in my early burners. Chose a stainless steel pipe or tube that the spacer ring can rest inside of, and you now have the same increase in width that a tapered flame nozzle makes. What about nozzle length? You need to have enough length to allow the needed amount of overhang past the mixing tube. No matter what the mixing tube's diameter is, the proper amount of overhang will ALWAYS turn out to be a little over its inside diameter; usually between 1/16" and 1/8" more. So I add 1/4" to the nozzle's inside diameter for good measure; add to this length the width of the spacer ring, and you know how long to cut your nozzle. So, how wide do you want the spacer ring? Wide enough for it to help force the nozzle into alignment with the mixing tube. Wide enough to provide plenty of distance to place up to two circles of set screws with 1/2" between them, and still have 1/4" between the center of their holes and the edges of the spacer ring. In short a minimum of 1" wide, even on miniature burners; until you become familiar with the subject, that is a safe minimum width. There are some burners, which don't have a strong enough mixture flow, to support a stepped nozzle; in that case you must employ a tapered flame nozzle. There are other burners, like Frosty's "T" burners, which can develop very hot soft flames; on them a stepped nozzle could be considered counter productive. But, for most burner designs, a stepped nozzle is not just easier to build; it also increases flame heat. What about other nozzle designs? Flame nozzles are only limited by your imagination...and your experience; these two are tried and true designs to start from; there are many others. It is also a fact that, when placed in equipment, burners can function without a flame nozzle; just not as well as with one. However, no flame nozzle at all, will work better in heating equipment than a badly constructed one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Mikey, the more of your posts I read, the stronger this itch I get to start buying fans and sausage stuffer tubes, annealed copper tube, set screws, spacer rings, aluminum blocks, mig tips, stainless tube, etc. and dive into my shop to tinker with it all. Oh, that's a rabbit hole, confound it. I keep telling myself I can just spend time fine-tuning the burner I have. So far, that's kept the itch from growing unbearable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 I'm holding out for his "infinite improbability burner" where you set it up and it burns forever using no more fuel and needing no adjustments! (I'd send you a cup of really hot tea, but the post office gets so snarky about such things...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 7, 2017 Author Share Posted June 7, 2017 Burner bocks 2 minutes ago, John in Oly, WA said: Oh, that's a rabbit hole, confound it. I keep telling myself I can just spend time fine-tuning the burner I have. So far, that's kept the itch from growing unbearable. You don't think a guy that blabbed all about his previous burner series is going to keep this one under wraps do you? It's just that text won't cut it on these burners. There must be lots of pictures, and that means progress is limited to how much garage time I can manage. Ahead of garage time must come yard work in a garden that is rapidly turning into a jungle. I can either rack my old bones out there, or pay another $5000 to have a crew come in and make it right! So, figure on July before you see those photos. On the plus side, these burners are actually simple to build; just not simple to put into words. And, yes, they are a rabbit hole, because they will rewrite so much about burner function. 5 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: I'm holding out for his "infinite improbability" burner where you set it up and it burns forever using no more fuel and needing no adjustments! (I'd send you a cup of really hot tea, but the post office gets so snarky about such things...) Sorry Thomas, You will just have to settle for a rabbit hole burner. And, I've just set the time for me to "put up or shut up," haven't I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 16 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: I'm holding out for his "infinite improbability burner" But, aside from the flame being quite erratic, you'd never know if it would ultimately appear in the part of the universe you had your steel waiting to heat. Or if, when it did, it would actually be a flame and not a bowl of petunias, which probably (or improbably) wouldn't have the same effect on the steel in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 I would have thought propane burners were quite good at jungle eradication...just hope the rabbit hole burner is not a boojum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 7, 2017 Author Share Posted June 7, 2017 No boojum in this rabbit hole. I have a propane burner that works very well, along with weeding, and Roundup. Trying to use propane burning to eliminate garden weeding in Seattle is a great way to eliminate excess money, while the weeds come right back. Burning, weeding, and poisoning is enough to keep my jungle in check at this time of year; just. then, there is pruning, and cutting down the fallen tree...and to think, this was originally my plan to eliminate lawn mowing. Now there was a clear case of boojum!!! Well, its off to work I go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Well there is always the Trinity Site method.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Yes, I fully understand the "garden" being synonymous with "jungle" conundrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 If y'all would just stop watering the stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Thanks for the in depth explanation Mikey! That'll make installing the nozzles properly on my yet to be built burners a cinch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 8, 2017 Author Share Posted June 8, 2017 Everything always boils down to dealing with the obvious. I kept wondering why anyone would place a reducer on his/her burner, instead of making something as simple as a stepped nozzle. After all, it was right in my book, which is free on the Net, and I said so many times (including on this thread)? Wrong; people get confused and DISCOURAGED. Then they look for whatever method comes to mind. So I finally did the obvious and posted what they need to know here and now. That is the point of this thread, obviously. And it only took me three years to see that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 8, 2017 Author Share Posted June 8, 2017 Anaerobic Sealants We have Tim to thank for using this term in another thread; it includes everything from gasket seal to thread sealer. He said: "Something I've not seen mentioned much is that using tape needs care and some skill. Whilst it's a long way from brain surgery and can be covered in a 10-minute show-and-do, I'm guessing most of the guys asking the tape or dope? question are doing so because they genuinely have no idea. They won't have had the 10-minutes of one-to-one instruction from someone who knows and are therefore probably best advised to use an anaerobic sealant, just because there is less chance of getting it wrong." Lots of us have used gas rated thread to seal our gas jets against those pesky leaks. Some have probably used pipe goop. My present answer is thread locker. John uses " yellow stuff". A word search under "anaerobic sealants" will give you more choices than you no what to do with. The main point is that, choosing one of these sealants is the easy path to avoiding gas leaks in threaded fittings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Nail Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said: Anaerobic Sealants We have Tim to thank for using this term in another thread; it includes everything from gasket seal to thread sealer. He said: "Something I've not seen mentioned much is that using tape needs care and some skill. Whilst it's a long way from brain surgery and can be covered in a 10-minute show-and-do, I'm guessing most of the guys asking the tape or dope? question are doing so because they genuinely have no idea. They won't have had the 10-minutes of one-to-one instruction from someone who knows and are therefore probably best advised to use an anaerobic sealant, just because there is less chance of getting it wrong." Lots of us have used gas rated thread to seal our gas jets against those pesky leaks. Some have probably used pipe goop. My present answer is thread locker. John uses " yellow stuff". A word search under "anaerobic sealants" will give you more choices than you no what to do with. The main point is that, choosing one of these sealants is the easy path to avoiding gas leaks in threaded fittings. I have found Loctite 561 ( part # 37127) that I am going to try. It is labelled for use in gasoline, natural gas ( not over 300 psi), petroleum products and propane and butane in less than 2" pipe. A little spendy but if it works it'll last forever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 9, 2017 Author Share Posted June 9, 2017 Please forgive my error. We have Tom to thank; not Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 9, 2017 Author Share Posted June 9, 2017 Given correct gas and air inflow, flame nozzle diameter determines the limit of a burner’s maximum output, because a flame cannot be maintained at the nozzle beyond the limits of its ability to be anchored there by the nozzle’s low pressure area. The tendency of a flame to blow completely off its nozzle is balanced by the countering push provided by ambient air pressure (equally from all directions except the area of reduced pressure inside the nozzle opening; behind the flame); this forms a delicate balance; increasing any flame beyond the low pressure area’s ability to hold it on (or partially within) the flame nozzle will lead to complete destabilization. It is a well-established fact that burners without any nozzle at all can operate well enough if properly positioned in forges and furnaces of a compatible size (too small an interior and the furnace or forge becomes a flame thrower; too large and a stable flame cannot be maintained). While this may seem to contradict previous statements, it is merely a case of “apples and oranges” because, sans nozzle, the furnace or forge interior becomes (in effect) the burner nozzle. So, why bother with a flame nozzle’s balancing act when you can just stuff the burner’s mixing tube directly into most heating equipment? Well, some people don’t bother. Let’s try a different question: Why drive a Ferrari when you can purchase a beat up old farm truck pretty cheap? A complete burner, flame nozzle included, gives you better flame control, so that the heating equipment it’s placed in only refines the flame still further. The smaller your equipment the more important flame control becomes (helping keep the flame burning inside the forge or furnace instead of overheating your work space). But, the larger your equipment the more full flame control saves in fuel costs, because complete combustion within a few inches of the burner entrance port means better heat transfer before its spent gases exit through the equipment’s exhaust opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 9, 2017 Author Share Posted June 9, 2017 So, more is better, right? If that was so, reducer fittings would make perfect flame nozzles; they don't because the nozzle diameter needs to match up well with the mixture flow to work properly. If you attempt to run a burner out in the open air with no nozzle at all, the flame cannot be maintained. Screw on a reducer fitting, and the same burner runs. However, the reducer always ends up having too large an opening diameter to get the best flame possible from the burner. So, a reducer fitting ends up better than nothing at all, but far short of optimal. Going back to the previous discussion of tapered and stepped nozzles, we we that the same nozzle diameters on different nozzle shapes can make quite a lot of difference. Shaped nozzles simply create more drag on the mixture flow than tapered nozzles do; whether that is good or bad depends on how fast your burner's mixture flow is. There are burners that can support more than one nozzle diameter. There are burners with ceramic multiple flame nozzles. Blue flame pocket lighters and had torches have nozzles that can make needle flames. I glance at a list of oxy-fuel torch tips will show a variety of shapes, which make various flames. The only limit is that the flame nozzle has to match the character of the burner's or torch's output; that is a guessing game. The more you know the less guesses are required to meet your needs Shaped nozzles simply create more drag on the mixture flow than tapered nozzles do? That should have read Stepped nozzles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Nail Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I don't suppose there is any chance of getting a picture or a link to a pic with labels showing the various parts for us burner challenged people. I mean I think that I can visualize what is being discussed, but it would be nice to be able to put a face on the the discussion.. Mikey you have referenced your book many times but i have never seen a name of the book to search for! I'm sure it's been listed but I've missed it somewhere! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 10, 2017 Author Share Posted June 10, 2017 the title is Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns. A couple of the guys recently asked my permission to post wholesale from the book, on this group. I encouraged them to go right on ahead and do so. I am about to retire the book from further publication. My knowledge on burners has moved on, and so has the marketplace. I consider the material too dated to be worth revising. I will save some chapters in other books, but will not bother with these burners anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 10, 2017 Author Share Posted June 10, 2017 What marketplace? The market for threaded pipe fittings. Part quality has gradually gotten so bad, that I would rather design from tube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Nail Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 On 6/9/2017 at 9:29 PM, Mikey98118 said: What marketplace? The market for threaded pipe fittings. Part quality has gradually gotten so bad, that I would rather design from tube. I was very surprised as to the difference in quality from store to store! The US made parts all though considerably more expensive were the better parts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 For years I was lucky enough to have a large family run hardware store a few miles away. Now it is just another store chain; their pipe and fittings are just as bad as everywhere else. If their products where then, the way it is now, my book would have featured nothing but tube burners. Not that they won't work as well on today's fittings, because of their aiming screws, but a don't like using second rate stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjs Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: For years I was lucky enough to have a large family run hardware store a few miles away. Now it is just another store chain; their pipe and fittings are just as bad as everywhere else. If their products where then, the way it is now, my book would have featured nothing but tube burners. Not that they won't work as well on today's fittings, because of their aiming screws, but a don't like using second rate stuff. Mclendons? They were great back in the day. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Nail Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: For years I was lucky enough to have a large family run hardware store a few miles away. Now it is just another store chain; their pipe and fittings are just as bad as everywhere else. If their products where then, the way it is now, my book would have featured nothing but tube burners. Not that they won't work as well on today's fittings, because of their aiming screws, but a don't like using second rate stuff. Pretty much the same here! Everything has turned into an Ace or Best Buy, But there is still one that sells good parts but cost twice as much as the other stores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 We used to have McKay's Hardware in Anchorage, great hardware store, even had a metal spinning lathe and tools in the power tool building! Mr. and Mrs. McKay wanted to retire but none of the kids wanted to keep the store, they wanted to sell it and split the money. Mr. and Mrs. McKay sold out to Ace, kept the money and let the kids do their own thing. We were out of town for the auction, I would've loved to bid on the spinning lathe, I doubt anybody knew what it was. Mr Mckay's hangout was the power tool building and he didn't know what it was for, how it was used, etc. I offered to show him but he wanted me to buy it first. I loved Mrs. Mckay she knew every inch of that store, what was where but wouldn't go rooting for it. She'd stand by the door or at the ladder to the upper storage area and call out directions and warnings of sharp edges,nails, etc. and send the customer for it. If you wanted it they had it, if you wanted it bad enough to go digging you could buy it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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