Jbradshaw Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 On 5/24/2017 at 10:43 PM, Mikey98118 said: Okay, what I'm seeing is a slightly reducing flame, that is almost correct. How can you tell this? Compare its tinge of green in the primary flame, with the perfect blue color around the flame's periphery, which turns into a short secondary flame on its tip. I would suggest that you drop down to the next smaller MIG tip diameter; when you do, don't be surprise if you need to lengthen the amount of nozzle overhang again. You are VERY close now. 23 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: I have downloaded book sections; they are meant to build knowledge, chapter by chapter, with the help of photos and drawings that don't exist yet. Of course they seem exhaustive, when taken out of context. On the other hand, nothing presents you from asking questions, to learn what you need to make these burners. Mikey SO I tried dropping down to a 0.023 tip last night but I have a hard time tuning it because I can't keep it burning. Once I get the start of a clear cone, very minor movements in the nozzle will cause it to blow out. And I cannot open the choke more than about 1/2" or it blows out. Any tips? Or do I have to accept that my last picture is about as good as this burner is going to get (and consider starting over if I am going to try to achieve perfection)? I gave up trying to tune it out of frustration last night, but will try again tonight. I have printed out all of the book sections you uploaded, and have read through some but not all of them yet. After I have read them a couple of times I may be able to ask intelligent questions about it, but not yet. Building one of these vortex burners seems daunting, more than your previous burner designs. I will probably give a try after I get some other projects out of the way though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 20 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Dead silence. See, this is why I've been reluctant to open up about "V" burners; they aren't complicated, but the subject is. Shall we just go back to discussing saddles for old style linear burners now? Your words are not falling on deaf ears, trust me! I can't speak for everyone else but as for me, I'm trying to pace myself. I have already built the modified side arm burners and I'm tuning those, and I'm going to build a ribbon burner for my new smaller/realistically sized forge. I will be swapping out my modified side arms for "T" burners eventually but I have to concentrate on getting the old forge relined and finished before I can tinker with a new-to-me burner design. There are so many burner designs out there that for new guys like me trying to decide what works for my needs is enough to give you a head ache! Plus when you have the proverbial too many irons in the fire it's just inviting disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 J The tip is your answer: One MIG contact tip was too large, and this other is too small; that is fine, since it defines the ballpart you are dealing with. So, now is the time for fine tuning. The amount of fame nozzle overhang, and changing the movable gas jet forward and back from the sweet spot, can both be used for this purpose. But I would recommend enlarging the jet diameter on the smaller MIG tip. The actual diameter on a MIG tip meant for use with .023" welding wire is .031". The actual diameter on a tip meant for .030" welding wire is .038" diameter, you can employ wire gauge drill bits, and/or wire files from torch tip cleaning kits, to enlarge the hole. Of course, their are other means, but this is the simple--not necesarrilly easiest--path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 4 hours ago, Mberghorn said: There are so many burner designs out there that for new guys like me trying to decide what works for my needs is enough to give you a head ache! Plus when you have the proverbial too many irons in the fire it's just inviting disaster. And there is no definitive answer for us experts either. There are perfectly good reasons for most of those designs; it isn't a question of one burner being better than another; I could quickly line them up according to which ones are hotter...and I'm not about to! Most of them, make a better fit in someone's plans then others can, regardless of which one is "top burner." Also there is no perfect burner, because a better design may not work as well in a particular forge, as a lesser one. You are stuck with an embarrassment of riches. I see no help for that; none I'm willing to commit against the good of the community. Ugh! How did a cigarette smoking, drag strip racing, leather wearing bad ass, end up being such a goody two shoes...LOL to the max. old age is hilarious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Mike: Ever wonder why I don't talk about different types of burner? I was REALLY reluctant to post about the NARB and add another thing to have to answer questions about. I'm getting a couple few posts a day from people who haven't bothered to read about burners and just ask. I don't have a problem helping with the genuine problems but some folk are just lazy. What we're seeing is the reason Ron won't answer questions anymore, hasn't for years. Download the directions and follow them. If a person is too lazy to do that little bit of work they need an easier and SAFER pursuit. Too lazy to read simple directions I'll bet they can't be bothered to read the safety procedures either. Heck, I can't easily express how happy I was to see you show up here. You've cut my daily load of lazy butt questions considerably. Thanks buddy. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 In the end, the grass keeps on growing, and our bones find rest beneath it. In the meantime, let us solder valiantly on--or not; the grass grows either way I often think of Ron; I hope he has found more rest in his retirement than he managed when (and shortly after) I know him. Someone said he had several heart attacks before he got to retire. I only had one, and it knocked the stuffing out of me. A buddy said it best after his; he just said "Superman doesn't live here anymore." As to the aggravation; it used to bother me a lot; a heart a attack and the first stroke didn't cure it. But the second one did the job pretty good! I is all happy now, since I don't think so good anymore..."yup, yup, and were going to da zoo" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacksmith-450 Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 55 minutes ago, Frosty said: Download the directions and follow them. If a person is too lazy to do that little bit of work they need an easier and SAFER pursuit. Too lazy to read simple directions I'll bet they can't be bothered to read the safety procedures either. I am one of the new ones but I assure you that I do my homework before asking a question. However following the recipe is not so easy. I made 2 T-Burner, 1 Reil, 1 Oliver Upwind and 1 Mongo and despite much attention to detail, I can not get the perfect flame! That's the better that I got : It's becoming an obsession! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Perfect flame or forge steel? Me, I'm making tools. Kinda got stuck on it - love tools! I'll get back to forging steel here real soon. I will. Soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Perfect flame? No such thing. How does it work either in the forge or as a bench mount torch, or. . . ? The only thing that really counts is how well it does the job you need done. That looks to be running a little rich. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 2 hours ago, blacksmith-450 said: I am one of the new ones but I assure you that I do my homework before asking a question. However following the recipe is not so easy. Well than, lets have a look at your flame, first: What a mess! However, if you put it in a forge, facing on a tangent to give that long monster of a flame enough flame path, you would probably be surprisingly satisfied. Why? because the very long tertiary flame (in the place of the usual long secondary flame), appears--according to its color--to be a very hot neutral one. However, knowing what I do, I can tell you that it cannot help but be slightly oxidizing. I know this because it is an inevitable consequence of the primary and secondary flame envelops that precede it. The inner white envelope that should have been clear, and the secondary blue-green envelope, which should have been a primary of the same blue we can see in the tertiary envelope. So why do I say It HAS to be at least somewhat oxidizing? Not because of its color, but what I see in the colors of the two preceding flame envelopes. The white flame is carbon rich, which made the second envelope burn fuel rich, which must lead to the teriary flame being exposed to too much super-heated oxygen to completely combust it all; fun ha? It's kind of like a seeing a car "hydraulic" on a wet road, out of control, and heading for the ditch. Only, instead of disaster, you can make use of the mess So, how did you get here? Looking at this 'Reil' burner, I see a very strange thing; instead of the expected mixing tube tucked inside of his recommended flame nozzle, there is a smaller pipe threaded inside of the mixing tube!!! The wonder of it is that this burner works at all...on the other hand, it plainly does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacksmith-450 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said: So, how did you get here? Looking at this 'Reil' burner, I see a very strange thing; instead of the expected mixing tube tucked inside of his recommended flame nozzle, there is a smaller pipe threaded inside of the mixing tube!!! The wonder of it is that this burner works at all...on the other hand, it plainly does Thanks Frosty and Mickey That's what surprises me the most and I do not understand. The Reil burner is quite easy and here are my parts as described instructions: Reducer 1-1/2 to 3/4 Nipple 3/4 X 6 inches 1/8 Tube with no.57 hole Flare To make the flare I took a 1 inch tube and I forged it. It simply slides over the 3/4 mixing tube. That's why I wonder why it does not work (look) as supposed...? although I get a hot flame... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 Well, if I may add to your confusion; your burner's flame is hotter than his original burner's is. You can build burners EXACTLY according to the designer's plans, and have the right to demand expected results. Or, you can change them as seems right in your eyes, and hope for expected results. Or, you can spend eighteen years learning all you need to know, in order not to be surprised very often by results, like I did; these are your choices. what will it be? BTW, if you place an internal bevel on the threaded end of your flame nozzle, it should improve that burner's flame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Heh, heh, heh. Mike, I and other folk like us were welders for years. All of us took classes that started out welding with oxy acetylene torches. You have to learn how to adjust the torch by how the flame looks, sounds and works. A flame for a cutting torch is tuned differently than a flame for, welding steel is different from one for welding aluminum is different for a #5 rosebud for bending is. . . different. Using an oxy acet torch means you have to learn what the flame is telling you. It wasn't really a big leap to learn what an air propane torch is saying. The shapes, combustion zones, sound, etc. are very different from an oxy acet or prop torch but we had to learn how to adjust our torches based on effect to the material we were welding, brazing, soldering, heating cutting, etc. Leaning how an air prop torch works falls into the, "just another darned torch" category. Ron's first burners barely functioned at all, none of ours did. The first 3 Ts I made were non starters, zeros. Then Cruz gave me a couple boxes of induction device materials and. . . Woo Hoo! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 Exactly; decades of reading oxyacetylene and other boxy-fuel flames gave me a lot of background to learn from. But air-fuel flames are different, and I'm still learning new things about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacksmith-450 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 56 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: But air-fuel flames are different, and I'm still learning new things about them. As long as you learn, you do not die ! That's my mindset I remade a tube with a hole no.60. The flame is 100% blue. However, there are orange flames. I guess I must now focus on the flare adjustment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 Orange flames near a flame nozzle are usually a sign that the nozzle is being slowly oxidized away. You have a mild steel nozzle, and I can see scale on it; so, the orange streaks are not unexpected. You can even get orange streaks from using #304 stainless steel, instead of #316, you can cet orange streaks from failing to file off a small burr or ding in the nozzle's edge. I saw one orange streak marring a perfect flame on a "T" burner bcause of a tear in the ceramic blanket that was touching the burner nozzle. So, it wouldn't hurt to work on your nozzle more, but you basically have a very hot flame exiting that burner. Can you do a little bit better? Yes; do you need to? Probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacksmith-450 Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said: Can you do a little bit better? Yes; do you need to? Probably not. Mike, thanks really much for your patience. I try hard to be an achiever... i add some hammer hit on the flare... a little sand paper and I got this : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Don't feel self conscious or anything, you're doing fine, better than most in fact. You're listening, trying suggestions and telling us what happened. You're the kind of person that makes helping a joy. Cleaned out some of the scale like Mike suggested and viola' it's looking good, darned good. Well done. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Nail Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 15 minutes ago, Frosty said: Don't feel self conscious or anything, you're doing fine, better than most in fact. You're listening, trying suggestions and telling us what happened. You're the kind of person that makes helping a joy. Cleaned out some of the scale like Mike suggested and viola' it's looking good, darned good. Well done. Frosty The Lucky. Feeling self conscious and wondering if I missed something while reading or misinterpreted something, sometimes makes it hard to ask questions. For example, is there a recommended way to test a burner? Do you clamp it in a vise, does it have to be tested in the orientation that it goes into the forge. Does the feed line have to be the same one you use for the permanent or can you use anything. I'm ready to start testing but am unsure as to the proper procedure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, Square Nail said: Feeling self conscious and wondering if I missed something while reading or misinterpreted something, sometimes makes it hard to ask questions. For example, is there a recommended way to test a burner? Do you clamp it in a vise, does it have to be tested in the orientation that it goes into the forge. Does the feed line have to be the same one you use for the permanent or can you use anything. I'm ready to start testing but am unsure as to the proper procedure. That depends on who you ask. I prefer to tune burners where they're going to be used. Mike on the other hand prefers to tune burners to run in or out of a forge. My version of a burner might be easier to make but Mike's are more versatile. The trick is pick ONE burner and make it that way. Mixing and matching is a PITA. Mike and I aren't as clear as we used to be, I'm a TBI survivor and Mike had a pretty serious stroke not long ago. Being confused reading what either of us writes is pretty normal. Just ask us for clarification, okay? You are asking straight up questions, you're not little kids who don't read the available information and argue if our answers don't meet their prejudices. You guys are alright, the kind that makes helping folk a pleasure. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 Agreed; you're doing just fine. I have thought, on several occasions, that I had burner tuning down pat; there is no such thing. Always, we we find refinements. Always, acceptations will prove to be new rules. However, once you strive, and achieve a goal. As you complete, and work with the forge, it will teach you more about burners. Trying to master everything about any one subject all at once reduces the returns on your efforts. Now stick that burner in a forge and learn a lot more about something else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 On 6/2/2017 at 11:02 AM, Mikey98118 said: J The tip is your answer: One MIG contact tip was too large, and this other is too small; that is fine, since it defines the ballpart you are dealing with. So, now is the time for fine tuning. The amount of fame nozzle overhang, and changing the movable gas jet forward and back from the sweet spot, can both be used for this purpose. But I would recommend enlarging the jet diameter on the smaller MIG tip. The actual diameter on a MIG tip meant for use with .023" welding wire is .031". The actual diameter on a tip meant for .030" welding wire is .038" diameter, you can employ wire gauge drill bits, and/or wire files from torch tip cleaning kits, to enlarge the hole. Of course, their are other means, but this is the simple--not necesarrilly easiest--path. their are also Watchmaker's Pivot Broaches, that can be used to enlarge holes as mall as .013" that you can find online from several sources, starting with eBay. I'm awaiting my own order of them from eBay now, and will speak more to the subject, once I have the opportunity use them. A picture, they say, is worth a thousand words; that is certainly true of flame photos. the more photos you guys post of burner flames, the more we can help you out with what's wrong, and the greater the collection of answers about tuning problems (and what you are seeing when you look at a flame) can accumulate. It isn't just perfect flames that help out with understanding, tuning problems. And this subject has got to be the most intimidating that most of you fellas face. But as you can see from those three photos, the answer can be closer than you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 Once again, you guys need to know that a hot running forge does not need a perfect burner, that is putting out a perfect flame; it just needs enough heat from the burner to allow the forge to work as a radiant oven. The burner is just one part of a successful forge. You don't need to "nock it out of the ballpard." you just need to get on base, and work from there. Dang, that should read "ballpark." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Nail Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 All I can say is that I'm getting very excited to get mine fired for the first time! Can't wait for the material to get here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 So I finally had the chance to put my rebuilt side-arm burners back in my forge this weekend. I fired them for the first time to set the rigidizer I applied to the fiber blanket. I must say I'm pleased with the results! This is less than a minute after lighting them off I started off at about 2 psi and was not displeased with the results! This was after turning it up to 10. Just for a comparison, this is the same forge, minus the rigidizer, running at around 8 psi before I found IFI and rebuilt my burners. I had my chokes wide open for the whole pressure range so I'm debating on whether or not to remove the choke tube completely. Also, I forgot to remove my nozzles before inserting them into the forge. I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes but I just thought I'd put that out there. Let me know what you guys think!! S/F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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