Burners 101

[VainEnd84]

@Mikey98118 Thank you for that explanation, you are as ever a wealth of knowledge!

[Mikey98118]

I am hoping to turn these pages more into photos and back and forth questions; I think the heavy text is already more than sufficient on this thread, and a change is needed now.

[VainEnd84]

8 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

I am hoping to turn these pages more into photos and back and forth questions; I think the heavy text is already more than sufficient on this thread, and a change is needed now.

You could write another book  hehe

[Frosty]

Or you could print out the pages you need, put them in a binder and have a custom book. EH? 

I started writing a post about propane burners and the weirdness of flame atmospheres but it's turning into a long one, even for me. Maybe later if it edits to reasonable.

Frosty The Lucky.

[VainEnd84]

@Frosty I haven't done that at all ... nope not me ... Well in all fairness I haven't printed it out ... yet 

[Frosty]

Why not, if anybody wanted to keep this stuff to themselves we wouldn't post it publicly, same for collecting royalties.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

i think we can always use more books on the subject, but am more pleased to see this kind of information remain posted on line, where anyone can access it. I would like to see that great example of a "T" flame posted here too. I have already decided to construct an example of the old Reil burner design featuring the MIG tip and flame nozzle changes, and add a photo of it in this thread. It would be good for people to be able to compare flame outputs of different burners easily.

 

[Frosty]

Uh. . . "Great" example? Since your recent emergence on Iforge and getting to talk with you directly I've changed my thoughts on what a good burner flame is. The T burner flames in my old shop forge are like jet engines you can hear from the house, the porch not inside. 

The T burner we talked about that was originally posted a few years ago is a much better example of a proper burner flame than any of mine except maybe the NARB variant.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

I have no problem collecting royalties for well done work that merit payment. But, I don't like people trying to keep general information secret to gain an advantage from it.

Remember, there is no such thing as the perfect burner; there is no "best" burner for the same reason there is no best shoe. Different burners, like different shoes work best for different purposes.

[Frosty]

Yeah, I'm a free flow of information kind of guy. I recognize exceptions of course but in general the more you give away the more you get back.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

 

speaking of great flames and getting back information, I was very totally impressed with the guy who made up a temporary burner block from wood. I don't know whether to pay more attention of the improved flame he made, or the genius of using wood for his experiment; my brain has been circling around these two joys for days! This is the best fun I've had since the guy who constructed a mini oval forge from half a car muffler.

[Frosty]

Wooden test blocks is how I developed the Narb. I posted pictures and you missed it?   <sniff sniff> 

Frankly I was thrilled to see someone else testing with wood blocks. It's almost like being a positive influence or something.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Ups! I did miss that, so congratulations for coming up with it; I think that is a vital technique  for advancing this kind of burner; well done!

[Frosty]

 I just adapted someone else's idea for experimenting with stuff. The only real credit I maybe deserve is for bringing the idea to folks attention here.

Using a cheap, fast, short lived material to experiment with beats the heck out of having to make full price experimentals. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[VainEnd84]

Frosty, I was being sarcastic lol.

 

I have about 3/4 of this thread picked through and half of the forges 101 and most of the t burner thread picked through and in 3 different word documents, once I have gone through all three I  was thinking of compiling them into a single word document and with your and Mikey's approval as well as a few other peoples would like to post it on IFI for anyone to download and print / read for everyone's benefit.

[Frosty]

That sounds like a good idea but I have to wonder how many folk would actually read it let along print it out for the shop. Have you read Ron Reil's burner build articles archived on the ABANA forum? Read Mike's downloadable pirated burner books?

Just so you know I'm not reacting to sarcasm, I enjoy having fun sarcasm flung my direction. What I;m wondering is if it'd actually be worth your effort.

Frosty The Lucky.

[VainEnd84]

Well I'm doing it for myself regardless of what others want, so there is that 

I do have a pirated copy of Mike's book and have read most of Ron Reil's articles. I guess I just like having as much info as easily at hand as possible

[Mikey98118]

I have no problem with what you want to do, either.

Sorry for the long pause; I just got back up from my sick bed; this flue that is going around has been eating me alive.

[Mikey98118]

Drilling small deep holes in copper

 

EDM tubes are made of copper with tellurium in it (a “free machining grade” alloy), and half-hard brass EDM tubes are about as easy to drill as it gets. But most MIG contact tips are made of industrially pure copper, and are about as hard to drill deep holes into as it gets; it is famous for gumming up the drill bit, and/or digging to deeply into the bit’s cutting edges; resulting in seizing and snapping off drill bits; the smaller the bit the tougher the problem gets. There are several things you can do to alleviate the problem:

(1)  It is crucial to use a drop of milk (or Rapid Tap cutting fluid) now and again to ease the drilling action and keep the copper from swelling against the bit from heat gain.

(2)  Use “peck” drilling in place of long drilling periods; set your quill stop to move down only a few thousandths of an inch at a time). Keep cleaning the drill bit of burrs. Stop if you hear any sudden noise, clean the bit, and use more fluid.

(3)  Split point cobalt drill bits are better for drilling copper than standard single point drill bits.

(4)  Or, use a diamond coated flat jewelers file, under a magnifying glass to flatten out the angle of rake in a standard metal drilling bit’s leading edges to neutral, to combat the bit’s inclination to “grab” the leading edges, and snap off.

(5)  Use bright finished stool steel bits; not black oxide bits, to help keep the bit from binding in the hole.

(6)  Keep the speed slower and feed pressures higher than normally used in metal drilling.

Finally, you are boring an existing hole out to a larger diameter, the less material yoy need to reduce the less likely you are to run into trouble; so spend a little more time purchasing the best match up in a MIG tip or EDM tube, instead of buying quick and working harder to match it up with a capillary tube. Also remember that the bit only has to match up within a few thousandths inch to the capillary tube, and the MIG tip can be finished a few more thousandths with  torch tip cleaners.

 

[Mikey98118]

    Various weak  battery operated rotary tools, which are worthless for other grinding and sanding work are perfect for use with miniature drills, when combined with collet chucks. Most rotary tools have the same thread on their shafts, which will match up with most miniature collet chucks, but there are no guarantees that yours will.

Drill Master rotary tool (from Harbor Freight Tools and other sources) are an excellent low cost tool for cutting capillary tube and drilling with miniature drill bits, just because it is weak: http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=rotary+tools

Collet chucks: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10Pcs-Brass-Drill-Chuck-Collet-Bits-0-5-3-2mm-4-3mm-Shank-For-Rotary-Tool/371753943239?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D2220072%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D43e81a640c7b40a290e4908844be458c%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D191758029756

 

Note: Avoid miniature drill chucks other than the collet types; I have yet to try one that worked.

[Mikey98118]

 

Why do I go to such "extremes" of advice in how-to choices? The smaller the burner the narrower your part choices become, do to market forces. Saying you should have "chosen better" in your construction methods or parts, isn't helpful. besides, my old ma use to warn against sneering, and I'm too old now to have my face freeze that way

[Frosty]

Pretty decent tutorial about drilling copper alloys Mike, I could go on for quite a bit on the subject but Dad's solution was different than yours. Another day perhaps.

It's hard not to list alternatives Mike but I find most folk aren't so good at juggling alternative methods, tools, etc. some are mutually exclusive and that seems to be the choice new folk take. Same as the old admonishment we heard almost daily at dispatch. "Remember, given a choice they'll make the wrong one." This was at dispatch working for highways maintenance where we got to play in traffic on the highway as a daily exercise. People were always doing exactly the worst possible thing unless directed otherwise.

 

Here's another example. It's more common than you think for motorists to drive right into a vehicle or piece of equipment with strobes going. Seriously, 3 lanes clear low traffic time night shift, one lane coned and barricaded off. motorist drives directly into the arrow board truck pointing to the clear lanes. It's why cops get hit so often too.

I believe it's an instinct driven bad choice. We're descended from omnivorous pack animals. We're bred to hunt by chase and throw a weapon. Our vision is automatically drawn to motion and a flashing light is perceived as  motion. When you're doing anything it goes where you're looking. Keep your eye on the ball isn't just an old saying, it's hard wired truth in us. So, there you are driving on a nearly deserted highway at night, not much to do but watch the skip lines (lane marker lines) go by and low and behold something DANGEROUS AHEAD!! Before becoming predators we were prey, still are actually and as prey if your attention isn't drawn to danger you aren't likely to pass your genes on.

And that's it boys and girls, our attention is drawn to danger and a mistake or poor tool choice, etc. is a danger of sorts and that's where we go. It takes a conscious effort of will to not be drawn to things that won't work, we call it knowledge and experience.

I've come to getting a flu shot religiously. This seasons strains are putting people in bed for weeks and they just keep getting worse. Makes me not want to go into public without an anti germ surgical mask like they use in Japan.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Dispenser Needles; a last look

MIG contact tips come in several orifice sizes, as do hypodermic needles. Just as heavy wall capillary tube can be made to serve as proper gas jets in small burners by varying short lengths to match output velocities of different orifice diameters, so to can dispenser needles serve the same purpose by varying larger lengths of larger diameters to overcome tolerance changes in those orifices. Also, the longer lengths can be more easily interference-fit in place or bent in a bow  to keep them in place, without need for silver brazing. Lengths and diameters will remain a matter of trial an error, because of tolerances; plus or minus .001" of an inch is a lot of difference when the orifice is .023" or less.

[ede]

On 3/19/2017 at 6:01 AM, Mikey98118 said:

Drilling small deep holes in copper

 

 

 

EDM tubes are made of copper with tellurium in it (a “free machining grade” alloy), and half-hard brass EDM tubes are about as easy to drill as it gets. But most MIG contact tips are made of industrially pure copper, and are about as hard to drill deep holes into as it gets; it is famous for gumming up the drill bit, and/or digging to deeply into the bit’s cutting edges; resulting in seizing and snapping off drill bits; the smaller the bit the tougher the problem gets. There are several things you can do to alleviate the problem:

 

(1)  It is crucial to use a drop of milk (or Rapid Tap cutting fluid) now and again to ease the drilling action and keep the copper from swelling against the bit from heat gain.

 

(2)  Use “peck” drilling in place of long drilling periods; set your quill stop to move down only a few thousandths of an inch at a time). Keep cleaning the drill bit of burrs. Stop if you hear any sudden noise, clean the bit, and use more fluid.

 

(3)  Split point cobalt drill bits are better for drilling copper than standard single point drill bits.

 

(4)  Or, use a diamond coated flat jewelers file, under a magnifying glass to flatten out the angle of rake in a standard metal drilling bit’s leading edges to neutral, to combat the bit’s inclination to “grab” the leading edges, and snap off.

This video illustrates your point well: 

 

(5)  Use bright finished stool steel bits; not black oxide bits, to help keep the bit from binding in the hole.

 

"Stool steel bits", I will have to ask for those next time at the supply house

 

(6)  Keep the speed slower and feed pressures higher than normally used in metal drilling.

 

Finally, you are boring an existing hole out to a larger diameter, the less material yoy need to reduce the less likely you are to run into trouble; so spend a little more time purchasing the best match up in a MIG tip or EDM tube, instead of buying quick and working harder to match it up with a capillary tube. Also remember that the bit only has to match up within a few thousandths inch to the capillary tube, and the MIG tip can be finished a few more thousandths with  torch tip cleaners.

 

 

 

 

[Mikey98118]

Yes, exactly; that is a very nice example.