Frosty Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 I think it looks HOT, WAY bigger than I'd build but HOT. What do you think? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 5 minutes ago, Frosty said: I think it looks HOT, WAY bigger than I'd build but HOT. What do you think? Frosty The Lucky. Yeah, that's my way-too-big forge that I told you about.....Once it get the castable layer in (which I'm going to make an inch thick) it will have a volume of 1,050 in^3. I have a buddy of mine that wants to get into smithing too so I'm going to tell him to bring his anvil over and we can both use the same forge. Lord knows it has the space for it, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 That is quite a difference! It is true that we need to remember burners are just a part of forges. It has always been inevitable that Burners 101 and Forges 101 topics would start wandering into each other, because they are two facets of one subject; gas forges. But, could you tell us what changes you made to your burners, that made this change in your forge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 1 minute ago, Mikey98118 said: That is quite a difference! It is true that we need to remember burners are just a part of forges. It has always been inevitable that Burners 101 and Forges 101 topics would start wandering into each other, because they are two facets of one subject; gas forges. But, could you tell us what changes you made to your burners, that made this change in your forge? Sure thing! I couldn't find black iron pipe that would allow me to thread a mig tip the first time for my jet tube so I used what I had which ended up being 1/4" copper pipe. (I didn't know that the pipe had to be schedule 80 in order for it to work.) That's way too big to thread a mig tip into so I tapered the ends down small enough that I could thread them to accept the .035 mig tip. They weren't very straight but they were close, or so I thought. That was also my first attempt at soldering copper pipe so learning experience there. The first time I went to forge in it I ran it all day, probably about 10 hours or so, and didn't even get half a set of tongs made before I shut down. Fast forward a few months of reading threads on IFI and I tore them apart, found the schedule 80 black iron pipe that I needed, down sized the mig tip orifice to a .030 and re did all the plumbing to use threaded brass adapters. I also changed the angle they were entering my forge from a straight 90 to an off set towards the top of the chamber to give that nice swirling effect that I read so much about. S/F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 Is there any chance that we can see a flame shot, either out in the air, or in the forge before its walls become incandescent? I think the before and after photos of the forge takes care of any lack of a" before" flame shot. The difference in the forge is pretty dramatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said: Is there any chance that we can see a flame shot, either out in the air, or in the forge before its walls become incandescent? I think the before and after photos of the forge takes care of any lack of a" before" flame shot. The difference in the forge is pretty dramatic One of the pictures at 2psi is less than a minute after lighting them all off. If I had to venture a guess it would be somewhere close to 20-30 seconds or so. There is one of those pictures that shows all three burners running in the forge but the flames are white in the picture. I'll try and take some out in the open air when I get home but they don't seem to perform as well outside the forge even with the flame nozzle, which has about a one inch overhang past the end of the mixing tube by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 Some aspects of MIG tip thread There are many manufacturers of MIG tips out there, and they use several different sizes of thread. So, what I do when designing a new burner, is make sure that I KNOW the thread size for a given tip. Next, I look up the particulars of that tip by reading all about it from a thread and tap chart online. Then, I double check what I think I know about the thread size, by getting out my micrometer and thread gauge, to make darn certain the tip matches up to what is called out in the chart, remembering that, while good charts include the allowed variances in major and minor thread diameters, not all of them do. A good chart will also include the recommended drill bit size for the thread, and that is what I use to select what part will make a workable gas pipe from Onlinemetals.com (my preferred online metal supplier). Furthermore, the challenge may not end there. Some tips, Like one of MK brand's series, may have thread (like 12-24) that may not match up perfectly with any stocked tubing, and then I have to take a chance that the nearest tube available, will suffice So, aren't we glad that Tweeco brand MIG tips dominated the market for so long, that tips with 1/4-27 thread are standard. And aren't we equally glad that 1/8" schedule #80 pipe nipples, which can be threaded with 1/4-27 or 1/4-28 thread from a $4 tap, work PERFECTLY in them, creating the best possible gas flow between tip and gas pipe. Of course "T" burners use a brass fitting that is also standard. But intrepid adventurers can always refer to the first paragraph; it shows how to succeed, while doing things the hard way. Some times, choosing the "easy" path of substituting a part that we can't get with a snap of our fingers, turns out to be a very hard way, indeed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 Pipe threads are tapered, so that seals aren't hard to attain. MIG tip thread, and the matching female thread in a burner's gas tube or brass fitting, are parallel thread. They must be sealed with gas rated tape, gas rated pipe gunk, or a gasoline tolerant "thread locker." Yes, thread locker; there are two kinds; those intended to be permanent, and those intended to allow disassembly of the part (with some effort. I first started considering thread locker, after dealing with the black variety found on imported torches and burners. New torches can be unscrewed, with some effort, but on old torches, the parts might as well be brazed together. Kind of reminds me of different kinds of thread locker. And so, thread locker would be my first choice for use with a bad joint between fitting and MIG tip. Employ pipe goop on MIG tips? Pipe goop only requires the same extra care that gas rated Teflon tape demands, or in either case, we will end up with a mess inside the gas jet. Once we accept that stricture, I think it is not as likely as the tape to cause trouble. Once we accept pipe goop over Gas rated Teflon tape, thread locker isn't much of a leap, and is less inclinde to make a mess than the thiner greasy goop, yes? That should read "inclined" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 Oh common, guys; I have been mulling this stuff over since 2006! Surely it's worth a reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 5 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: Oh common, guys; I have been mulling this stuff over since 2006! Surely it's worth a reply. When I rebuilt the burners for my way-too-big forge I used a fuel gas rated thread sealer. It's yellow and gritty and seals the threads quite well and all the parts are still easily removable. I'll take a picture of the bottle when I get home and up load it to the thread tape post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 Good; thank you for the input. I look forward to the information too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 23 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Some aspects of MIG tip thread There are many manufacturers of MIG tips out there, and they use several different sizes of thread. So, what I do when designing a new burner, is make sure that I KNOW the thread size for a given tip. Next, I look up the particulars of that tip by reading all about it from a thread and tap chart online. Then, I double check what I think I know about the thread size, by getting out my micrometer and thread gauge, to make darn certain the tip matches up to what is called out in the chart, remembering that, while good charts include the allowed variances in major and minor thread diameters, not all of them do. A good chart will also include the recommended drill bit size for the thread, and that is what I use to select what part will make a workable gas pipe from Onlinemetals.com (my preferred online metal supplier). Furthermore, the challenge may not end there. Some tips, Like one of MK brand's series, may have thread (like 12-24) that may not match up perfectly with any stocked tubing, and then I have to take a chance that the nearest tube available, will suffice So, aren't we glad that Tweeco brand MIG tips dominated the market for so long, that tips with 1/4-27 thread are standard. And aren't we equally glad that 1/8" schedule #80 pipe nipples, which can be threaded with 1/4-27 or 1/4-28 thread from a $4 tap, work PERFECTLY in them, creating the best possible gas flow between tip and gas pipe. Of course "T" burners use a brass fitting that is also standard. But intrepid adventurers can always refer to the first paragraph; it shows how to succeed, while doing things the hard way. Some times, choosing the "easy" path of substituting a part that we can't get with a snap of our fingers, turns out to be a very hard way, indeed... I did the same thing when I built these burners. I bought a package of mig tips that were supposed to be 1/4-28. That's what they were advertised as and that's what it said on the package. When I double checked them with my thread gauge they were 1/4-27. I thought maybe my thread gauge was messed up so I checked them with four other thread gauges; three SAE and one metric. Once my suspicions were confirmed I ended up buying a new tap so I could use the 25 mig tips that I just bought, lol. (Hey, if it's good enough to buy one, then it's good enough to buy a bunch, right?!) 2 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: Good; thank you for the input. I look forward to the information too. Glad I could help. Someone has to keep you guys occupied, lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 I spend a lot of time and money running down sad little facts like that, everytime I start designing a new burner or piece of equipment. The marketplace, whether downtown or online, never really improves; it just changes. One irritation or injustice goes away and something else takes its place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 3 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: One irritation or injustice goes away and something else takes its place. Unfortunately that's the way of the world, my friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Nail Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 13 minutes ago, Mberghorn said: I did the same thing when I built these burners. I bought a package of mig tips that were supposed to be 1/4-28. That's what they were advertised as and that's what it said on the package. When I double checked them with my thread gauge they were 1/4-27. I thought maybe my thread gauge was messed up so I checked them with four other thread gauges; three SAE and one metric. Once my suspicions were confirmed I ended up buying a new tap so I could use the 25 mig tips that I just bought, lol. (Hey, if it's good enough to buy one, then it's good enough to buy a bunch, right?!) Glad I could help. Someone has to keep you guys occupied, lol! I'm glad that I'm not the only one who was going nutzo trying to find a 1/4 28 mig tip. I thought I was totally inept at threading a pipe, until I found the same thing, 1/4 27 works fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 Actually, a soft copper 1/4-27 thread will work in a 1/4-28 threaded steel hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hall Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 I fired up my burners last night to test and hopefully this video will be viewable. These are my first burners and first test. Max pressure on the regulator last night was 10psi. I'm pretty sure I have it wide open to test. I am open to comments and any feedback is welcome! 20170605_191536.mp4 20170605_191625.mp4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 10 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: Actually, a soft copper 1/4-27 thread will work in a 1/4-28 threaded steel hole. The structures mechanic in me is twitching like a son-of-a-gun right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 Mine twitched back in 1999, when I went that rout. Safe and sane is always my first choice; and that means matching thread. Today, you can buy 1/4-27 taps cheaply from many sources; including eBay. At the time and place, they were a high priced special order for me through Tacoma Screw. So, I gritted my teeth and took a chance. It turned out that the moment of truth was anticlimactic; it was easy. That doesn't mean I'm recommending it; just defending in. Anyone can buy the right tap from eBay for $4...today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 36 minutes ago, Mike Hall said: I fired up my burners last night to test and hopefully this video will be viewable. These are my first burners and first test. Max pressure on the regulator last night was 10psi. I'm pretty sure I have it wide open to test. I am open to comments and any feedback is welcome! I think you need to either build a step nozzle, or reshape your tapered flame nozzle to the recomended 1:12 shape. It isn't a question of the flame being too poor. I don't like how hot the nozzle is getting out in the open air. I have visions of it melting down into a puddle inside a forge. The upside is that it gets so hot, you should be able to run it for a few minutes, shut off the burner, and forge it to the right shape, over a smaller pipe, easily. Also, Larry Zoeller Forge sells stainless steel tapered nozzles cheap. I don't know why all you guys are bothering to build your own! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hall Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 5 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: I think you need to either build a step nozzle, or reshape your tapered flame nozzle to the recomended 1:12 shape. It isn't a question of the flame being too poor. I don't like how hot the nozzle is getting out in the open air. I have visions of it melting down into a puddle inside a forge. The upside is that it gets so hot, you should be able to run it for a few minutes, shut off the burner, and forge it to the right shape, over a smaller pipe, easily. Also, Larry Zoeller Forge sells stainless steel tapered nozzles cheap. I don't know why all you guys are bothering to build your own! Thanks Mike. I was surprised and concerned about how hot they got too. I was thinking I could remove the set screws or loosen them and get it hot and then taper it on the horn of my anvil. That is the only way I can get them hot enough to do it on the anvil, but it might work. I could also just buy the them from Larry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 You have seen recent photos that show how widely flames can vary from very small changes in flame nozzles. Also, mild steel will oxidize away in very little time. So, trying to make tapered nozzles when you can buy good quality at a low price, is silly economics. The more I see guys reinventing the wheel the more I respect the power of advertising...or the appalling mess that comes from a lack of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 35 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: Also, Larry Zoeller Forge sells stainless steel tapered nozzles cheap. I don't know why all you guys are bothering to build your own! I bought mine from him and all three are almost identical and they come tapped with two set screws each all for $7 a piece. Well worth it in my opinion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 It is no secret that I like step nozzles; they take a faster burner design than tapered nozzle, to work; but that happens to include most of the burners around since we started using MIG contact tips (and capillary tube) for gas jets. I started making stepped flame nozzles with my second burner, and never looked back; that was a mistake. Tapered nozzles still have their place, and so does Larry Zoeller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 11 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: It is no secret that I like step nozzles; they take a faster burner design than tapered nozzle, to work; but that happens to include most of the burners around since we started using MIG contact tips (and capillary tube) for gas jets. I started making stepped flame nozzles with my second burner, and never looked back; that was a mistake. Tapered nozzles still have their place, and so does Larry Zoeller. I think I'm going to give your step nozzle thing a try on the burners I make for my next forge. I'm in the process of getting everything ready to line it now so they'll be coming along shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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