Mikey98118 Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 Now, please try the same test positions with the .023" MIG tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 8 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Now, please try the same test positions with the .023" MIG tip. Same process with .023 tip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 Good Morning Greg, It's handy to make all your adjustments, holding the burner in a vice. Everything changes when you put the burner into your Forge. The internal back pressure of the inside of the Forge and the heat from the refractory when it comes up to temperature, will make you go back to square "1"!! Mike has offered you many suggestions, try them, one at a time. You will have to take a notebook and record which change, changed what. That will still all change as the Forge heats up. Then your Propane tank will start to freeze and it will change again. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 This is interesting. Your best flame happens with the MIG tip's end directly at the forward end of the air openings. I would have thought it wasn't possible. Nevertheless, these photos can't be denied. I will tentatively attribute this to the beveling of the forward ends of the burner's air openings--for now. Does this matter? No; what is, just is. The next step is to leave this MIG tip in its present position, and reduce the amount of overhang in the flame retention nozzle a few thousandths of an inch, to see if you can achieve a perfect flame before it destabilizes. Your present flame isn't bad, but it is not perfect, and we are both after that blue ribbon flame, right I find what you said about present MIG tip sizes disturbing, but potentially quite useful. An ,028" orifice diameter would prove just perfect for a 1/2" Mikey burner--if it has a steady supply, rather than being a manufacturing fluke. 2 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: a few thousandths of an inch, That should have read "...a few thousandths of an inch at a time," Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 8 hours ago, swedefiddle said: Good Morning Greg, It's handy to make all your adjustments, holding the burner in a vice. Everything changes when you put the burner into your Forge. Neil, Appreciate the feedback. I have to admit, prior to “playing around “ with the burner outside the forge, I had no idea what a good/perfect flame should look like. I like to tinker so it all goes into my experience bucket. I’m sure I be asking for advice when it goes into the forge. Until then, Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 12, 2023 Author Share Posted March 12, 2023 What flames do out in the open air, and how that changes within a forge primarily has to do with how hard or soft the flame is, because of back pressure. Then, all flame changes within an incandescent forge because its super heated atmosphere becomes a a giant external combustion surface, which surrounds the flame, shortening the distance needed for secondary combustion to take place. However, I merely see improvement in the flames do the the second cause, if the burner is burning pretty well, in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake18 Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 Howdy Mikey, what would be the best place to start when trying to come up with what type of flame retention nozzle to use and what size it needs to be? If the information has already been presented in the thread then just point me to it and save some time but I’ve been trying to find it and haven’t been able to find what I’m looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 12, 2023 Author Share Posted March 12, 2023 Howdy Jake, The problem is that this thread is part of a public forum and not a textbook. So, looking things up on it isn't all that easy, even for me So, let's do a "short" review, starting at where the gas/air mixture exits the burner's mixing tube, into...what? Into a flame retention nozzle, a plenum chamber, or directly into the forge interior. Flame retention nozzles on gas/air burners and torches come in various designs. We will limit this discussion to slide-over stepped nozzles; this design came from slide-over tapered nozzles. All flame retention nozzles slow down the gas/air mixture that is exiting a burner or torch's mixing tube, by creating a low pressure area (through a rapid expansion of the mixture). Early versions of these nozzles where made of the next larger pipe (that slide back and forth on the burner's mixing tube), which had its end expanded a total of 1/8" (inside diameter), usually by heating to red and tapping the nozzle over a drift pin. Larry Zoeler Forge started making them from stainless-steel, and selling them for a reasonable price. If I recall correctly, they were 2" long with a 1/8" taper in 1-1/2", with three equally spaced holes near the rear end, for set screws. Tapered flame retention nozzles worked very well on a wide range of naturally aspirated burner designs for rears. However, they weren't up to working on thigh speed tube burners (lMikey burners), but stepped nozzles are; these include a spacer ring in the rear area, made of the next large pipe or tube to slide over the mixing tube on, and an outer stainless-steel tube. How long stepped nozzles are, is simply a matter of convenience. However, these nozzles must be as long as their inside diameter wide, plus an additional 1/8" for tuning, plus the width of the spacer ring. So, why slide-over? Both tapered and stepped flame retention nozzles, are tuned by sliding them back and forth on the burner's mixing tube, thus varying the amount of overhang of the nozzle past the end of the mixing tube. By doing this, you can vary their width to length ratio to a minor degree; this changes the amount of drop in mixture pressure, which helps retain the flame on the burner; thus, their name. Plenum chambers are what is used on most (not all) multi-flame burners, whether they are steel plenum chambers ending with a cast refractory "brick" (that has a pattern of through holes left in it), or the plenum chamber is a ceramic (actually cast refractory) burner head, which screws onto pipe thread. Hybrid multi-flame retention nozzles fall in between the previous two examples, for those who would have their cake and eat it too; these are usually made by trapping a stainless-steel multi-hole face plate from a faucet in the end of a pipe reducer. I have seen a few; they seem to work quite eall, but those drilled plates are very thin; If you want your nozzle to last, drill your own plate from 1/8" or thicker stainless-steel plate. Forge interiors can be used as a combination plenum and ignition chamber, by those who can't conveniently find the materials do build a flame retention nozzle. How well they work can best be described as variable, but the price is right "What size it needs to be" is the wrong question, when applied to plenum chambers and flame retention nozzles, because their sizes are strictly determined by what works best on any given burner design and size. Did you mean to ask what size burner is needed for a given internal volume in a forge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 12, 2023 Author Share Posted March 12, 2023 Flame retention nozzle diameters: (1) A 1/8” burner’s nozzle size is 0.493” I.D; this is sufficient to heat 22 cubic inches on naturally aspirated burners. (2) A 1/4” burner’s nozzle is 0.622” I.D.; this is sufficient to heat 44 cubic inches on naturally aspirated burners. (3) A 3/8” burner’s nozzle is 0.824” I.D.; this is sufficient to heat 88 cubic inches (4) A 1/2” burner’s nozzle is 1.049” I.D.; this is sufficient to heat 175 cubic inches on naturally aspirated burners. (5) A 3/4” burner’s nozzle is 1.315” I.D.; this is sufficient to heat 350 cubic inches on naturally aspirated burners. (6) A 1” burner’s nozzle is 1.61” I.D.; this is sufficient to heat 700 cubic inches on naturally aspirated burners. Note: “Sufficient to heat” means that it can raise a properly built forge interior of those cubic inches to welding heat, or melt cast iron in an equal size casting furnace. Are these figures legitimate? In fact, they are under stated; not over reaching. What about the optional second (larger) flame retention nozzles on fan-induced burners? Whatever inside diameter is used with one of them, with the gas pressure turned up to match the fan running at full speed, can be considered as producing a flame equal to the nozzle size in a naturally aspirated burner. Note that this doesn't apply to fan-blown burners, because how far the fan can be turned up is strictly limited. It must be pointed out that the number of cubic inches that can be brought to welding temperature in a properly built forge, or the number of cubic inches in a casting furnace that can be brought to iron casting temperatures (from a burner with a neutral flame), depends on the inside diameter of its flame retention nozzle; its inside diameter is limited to about 1/8" larger than the outside diameter of a burner’s mixing tube, in naturally aspirated burners. But nozzle diameters on fan-induced vortex burners must be larger, when the fan is running at full power, and the fuel gas is increased to match its increased air induction, so the amount of cubic inches a fan-induced burner will sufficiently heat depends on the internal diameter of its flame retention nozzle; not its mixing tube diameter. The apparent size of multi-hole burner heads, cast refractory ribbon burners, and hybrid multi-hole flame retention nozzles, do not actually produce more flame heat than single burner flame retention nozzles. The point of multi-hole nozzles is that the exhaust gas from several small flames will decelerate far quicker than that from a singe large flame. It isn't increased heat production, but an increase in hang-time, which makes multi-hole flames so desirable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 12, 2023 Author Share Posted March 12, 2023 That's what you get for asking a geek a question like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake18 Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 That’s exactly the kind of answer I was looking for, thank you! I thought the size of the nozzle was relevant because I’ve seen a comment made about using a stepped nozzle 2.5 times the inner diameter of the mixing tube Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 12, 2023 Author Share Posted March 12, 2023 That's okay, Jake; these long winded answers force me to review what I thinks I know; a very good thing for us old folks. "Hill? What hill. I don't remember any hill." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 12, 2023 Author Share Posted March 12, 2023 So, I was coming back to Seattle, from Kentucky by way of west Texas, and stopped in a motel for the night. The next morning I had a sorta breakfast in a gas station-small grocery store, with a microwave and small dining area. There were several late middle aged ladies--and I do mean LADIES--breakfasting at the next table. I asked them for directions to the coast, and they assured me that I only needed to continue heading west on the highway out front. I came away with three very strong impressions: First, that west Texas highways aren't kept in sterling condition. Second, that the motel had great air conditioning. Third, that at least some Texans have wonderful manners. After seventeen years, I'm still impressed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 I lived in Payson Az once alone a time, and when travelers asked for directions to Phoenix or Scottsdale I would tell them to head south and turn right at the next stop light. The next stop light was just about 100 miles down the road ;-). Payson has grown some, I think it’s now the third stop light. I find that most age and still have southern and southwestern sensibilities. You can still be lovingly told “Well bless your little heart” which is Southern for “Your bat **** crazy”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 You can say just about any awful thing about a person in the South if you add "bless his/her heart." For example, "He couldn't pour pee out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel, bless his heart." or "She has the morals of a b...h in heat, bless her heart." A very useful construction. Under the influence of my Florida born wife I've started using it on occasion. "By hammer and hand alla rts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 13, 2023 Author Share Posted March 13, 2023 My sister and brother in law used to live in Strawberry, after they retired; it's just up the hill about fifteen minuets out of Payson. I always found the abrupt change of scene when you enter town, after that long dry drive up from Phoenix a total relief Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 Being raised buy an Item Okie, “Sweet heart, Honey and Dear come all to easy to the tung and will get you slapped north east and west… Strawberry is generally said in one breathe with Pine, as in Pine-Strawberry, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 13, 2023 Author Share Posted March 13, 2023 Yes; actually, they lived in Pine, but I could never remember that name, where as strawberry is memorable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 14, 2023 Author Share Posted March 14, 2023 Good Morning, Greg. How is burner tuning going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 9 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Good Morning, Greg. How is burner tuning going? No progress - work has gotten in the way. Plan on doing some testing by Saturday. Appreciate your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 .023 tip flush with the forward air slots at 15psi. Sequence: 1.5” overhang then .06 increments. Flame went out after the last photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 16, 2023 Author Share Posted March 16, 2023 It is against all my instincts to advise this, but, start where you were, and lengthen the overhang a little at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 (edited) Interesting you say that. Early on it appeared the burner produced less tertiary flame with more overhang. Edited March 17, 2023 by Mod30 Remove excessive quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 16, 2023 Author Share Posted March 16, 2023 (edited) When what we "know darn well" doesn't work, we are forced to improvise. I would be having fun, if this were my own burner, but more care must be taken with other people's toys Edited March 17, 2023 by Mod30 Remove excessive quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 17, 2023 Author Share Posted March 17, 2023 By the way, Greg; you do have a regulator and needle valve on that burner's gas line, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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