Burners 101

[JDTaylor]

I sure wish I knew of this forum prior to my starting my forge.  I spent a lot on burner material and a lot of trial and error.... some  of it probably a little dangerous.  I made a three burner forge using plumbing pipe.  The 3 pipe  plan didn't get quite hot enough and it used way too much gas for  my budget.  I eventually came up with this home made ribbon burner.  It uses a fraction of the gas and gets white hot...  but the process getting there was long and pretty expensive.  Especially when the whole project could have been really cheap if I'd have not had to do the trial and error part. 

[Mikey98118]

What we all want to see is a flame photo of the ribbon burner at work, so now you need to build a forge to show it off in. Quick, quick, hurry up

I am in the twenty-third year of this little hobby (making air/fuel burners, and the equipment they get mounted in). Looking back, I realize that there is no magic remedy for putting in time on the learning curve. Those who take the short path usually just have penalty payments before crossing the finish line.

Naturally, none of us wants to hear that our best move is to just plod on, slow and sure; I sure didn't

You did come to using a ribbon burner, early on; that puts you miles ahead of the pack.

[Frosty]

23 years Mike? You were one of the first names in burners I heard, right after Ron Riel ad I started noodling with them on Theforge.list. That had to be the mid-late 80s. My first functional T burner was 35 years ago, I was still living in a mobile home in S. Mtn. View. 

Deb and I have been married going on 26 years and I knew who you were well before then.

Sorry for the side track JD, I get stuck on a thought sometimes. 

I'm not following how your fuel air supply system works. Would you mind clarifying please?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

11 minutes ago, Frosty said:

23 years Mike? You were one of the first names in burners I heard, right after Ron Riel ad I started noodling with them on Theforge.list. That had to be the mid-late 80s. My first functional T burner was 35 years ago, I was still living in a mobile home in S. Mtn. View. 

Well, to go even further afield, yes; just twenty-three years. I started looking into building my first gas forge around the middle of December 1999. I then promptly fell down the rabbit hole, and was designing advanced burners in about three months. 

six months before Gas Burners came out, I met my buddy, Dan Brewer, who wanted to build a gas fired casting furnace, to make deck hardware to match some existing parts on a boat. We collaborated in building a furnace from a five-gallon propane bottle, which ended up featured in the book, and I fell down the home casting equipment rabbit hole. So, I wrote on casting newsgroup sites, untill they mostly disappeared about twelve years later

    Early on, Ron told me about "a guy he knew" that had built a very advanced burner; I assumed this was you, when we ran across each other later (2016 maybe?). But Ron thought "this guy's" burner design was hush, hush, and would say no more about it.

    So, why did I assume it was you? We both used MIG contact tips as gas orifices. Yes, it was an obvious idea, but nobody else used them until years after my book came out. Obvious counts for very little. Just repeating the point endlessly is what it seems to take, to get people to do the obvious

Hopefully, the next obvious move in small burners, to 3D printer nozzles, won't take so verrrry looooooong. It would be nice to get them established before they become out-dated by the next obvious improvement

[Mikey98118]

Frosty,

So, getting back to the other end of burners, did you notice the 3D printed air funnels being sold by Apollo on their site?

I have bent over backward to avoid flammable air openings on my burners; especially where they might have gas gas parts attached to them. During a fire, this could be a complication. Of course, by that time, who would even notice?

But 3D printing was bound to make this inevitable...should we go along with what loads of builders will chose, or stick out the lower lip, and say "Na, Na, Na. I won't do it, and you can't make me!"

What side of the issue will end up actually being practical?

[Mikey98118]

                             NovelLife Mini Drill Press

This is $81 through Amazon.com; it is the latest miniature design marketed, and appears well made, but more importantly, it is the most competent design I have come across, using a flat toothed belt between the 795 DC motor and its chuck spindle (of the same kind used as timing belts on car engines); this maks an end-run around the miseries of standard round silicone belts, used on the other machines. At a total height of 8.7", with a base plate of 4.7" wide by 5.9" long, it is by far the smallest miniature machine on offer. Yet, capable of doing all the precision drilling needed to build gas equipment. The chuck’s opening range is 0.0236” to 0.236” (0.6-6mm), and has a stroke of 1.575” (40mm). They provided a double spring, to make the return smooth and sure. It looks, at first glance, as though someone paid close attention to all the customer complaints about previous mini drill presses. Time will tell.

Alas, after buying two different miniature drill presses last year, I will have to wait for Xmas before the little woman will put up with me collecting another one

[Mikey98118]

Drilling depth is controlled by an external assembly, eliminating internal rack and pinion gear parts, which have caused problems in many imported drill presses. Rack and pinion gears are standard on drill presses with very long quill travel. But the plunge depth on all these miniature drill presses, are only around 1-1/2". So, rack and pinion gears aren't needed; therefore, they constitute outmoded design, so long as the external assembly isn't rickety. 

[Mikey98118]

22 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

so long as the external assembly isn't rickety. 

That is a very important "so long as." If that external assembly is poorly constructed, it will allow the chuck to wander off center in the drill vise, which is probably how we ended up with rack and pinion gears in these machines to begin with.

Before low priced miniature drill presses started being imported, the usual tool used was a die grinder or rotary tool, mounted in a drill stand; they used carelessly constructed external lever assemblies, and where infamous for wandering off center during drilling.

So, after over-engineering the problem with internal rack and pinion gears, manufacturers are beginning to simply provide properly constructed external lever assemblies. What is it about the plain and obvious solution that always seems to make it unpopular?

[Frosty]

On 4/24/2023 at 1:38 PM, Mikey98118 said:

But Ron thought "this guy's" burner design was hush, hush, and would say no more about it.

Yeah, that was probably me but I was noodling around with something completely different and asked him not to talk about it. It turned out to be a complete wash, it induced way too much air or didn't work at all. It was based on the "Air Amplifier" used to transport grain and such, the Dyson fans, hand driers, etc. use the same principle. It just wouldn't work for a burner it's minimum induction threshold was way out of combustion range.

I don't know if I bounced and details off Ron but I had some high hopes if it did work. I was thinking jet engine compressor with no moving parts. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

It really didn't matter. By the time I got interested enough in his web site, to take a trip out to Boisy and see him, we was pretty tired of anwering constant burner questions. I think he was looking for a a way to it all dump it in someone else's lap; I suspect he was already starting to suffer from the very  odd form of lung infection from mold, that nearly finished him off. Then came the school hassles with his lost records, and his fathers death, and finally his heart attack; he had a lot on his plate. Most of us go through this sort of mess at times  I just think he had stuff coming at him from left and right field for about five years. Then, he dropped out of site. Where ever he is these days, I hope he has found new interests, and is happy.

[Another FrankenBurner]

I visit him.  He always has a smile when I see him.

[Mikey98118]

You are neighbors? Please tell him that Mikey said "hi"; he may even remember me.

[JDTaylor]

You wanted to see a pic of my ribbon burner in action... unfortunately, I don't have a pic just yet.  I made a bunch of pics in the steps of making the burner, but none showing it at it's hottest.

The ribbon burner uses measured air, uses waaaay less gas, and gets so much hotter than the regular burners.  I mean, white hot.  I'll get some pics this coming weekend.  I still work a regular job and I can't blacksmith except on the weekend.  

I'll have pics soon.

[Another FrankenBurner]

17 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

You are neighbors?

He lives about an hour from me.  I apprenticed with him for a couple of years. 

When I first visited him, I peppered him with burner questions.  Michael Porter and Jerry came up in the conversation.  He remembers you.

I will let him know you said hi.

[JDTaylor]

... and for Frosty,  the fuel / air mixture works by a careful measure.  I have the same high flow gas valve I used with the standard burners.  I keep a pressure  of about 6 psi.  I use a valve to mix the air, which is supplied by an old truck heater fan.  The thing is a little finiky and took a while to get the mixture just right to heat super hot and still supply a steady, even flame.  

   It may be later Sat or even Sun to get a pic of it working.  I just noticed that I have a bent tubing right at my connector.  It will have to be replaced before heat... safety first.

[Mikey98118]

Well, yes, that gas/air system is going to be somewhat cranky, because the last gas valve in line is a ball valve; this valve belongs just down stream of the gas cylinder for quick shutdown, in case of fire. Just before the burner's air entrance is a convenient place to put a needle valve for fine tuning, or else no valve at all.

Since your photo shows a pressure gauge on the gas line, I will assume that you have a variable pressure regulator installed somewhere between the gas cylinder and the gauge.

On the air entrance side, the heater fan seams good enough, if you have a speed control for the motor installed too? Otherwise, you will need a valve to help dump excess air from the fan.

You also need to move that acetylene torch set as far away from your forge as possible. Somewhere outside the building in a shady spot is where most fire codes call for the cylinders to be stored.

13 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

Well, yes, that gas/air system is going to be somewhat cranky, because the last gas valve in line is a ball valve; this valve belongs just down stream of the gas cylinder for quick shutdown, in case of fire. Just before the burner's air entrance is a convenient place to put a needle valve for fine tuning, or else no valve at all.

Since your photo shows a pressure gauge on the gas line, I will assume that you have a variable pressure regulator installed somewhere between the gas cylinder and the gauge.

On the air entrance side, the heater fan seams good enough, if you have a speed control for the motor installed too? Otherwise, you will need a valve to help dump excess air from the fan.

You also need to move that acetylene torch set as far away from your forge as possible. Somewhere outside the building in a shady spot is where most fire codes call for the cylinders to be stored.

Aso, the basket fulled with flammable waste paper needs to go away, too.

[Mikey98118]

On a happyer note, I see that you chose to hinge one end of the forge. With the improvementa in insulating brick, ceramic board, and other stiff materials, this build choice is only going to become more important. Would you like to talk about the steps you took, for all of us inquisitive listeners?

[Frosty]

All those fittings is what had me wondering about you having something special going on. 

Your propane regulator should have a plug on the outlet side for a gage which lets you lose all those fittings near your forge. A needle valve in the gas circuit at the point it injects into the air flow is a nice addition though not necessary. I have a 1/4 turn ball valve right after the gage as the working gas valve, it's a handy place in case something goes wrong and you want to shut it off quickly from a distance.

Putting the gage at the regulator lets you adjust pressure and watch it at the same time plus it allows the system to depressurize when you shut it off. Your gas injector is so far from the heat there's no reason to use anything but rubber propane hose, unlike mine. 

Your system will clean up beautifully and not lose one bit of performance. It's common for folks figuring this stuff out for themselves to have lots and lots of fittings where one will do, I never took pic of my early forges but I still have a cigar box half full of fittings from those days. 

Welcome to the club Brother. 

I look forward to seeing your forge burning.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

16 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

I will let him know you said hi.

Thank you. I often think of him. Of course, he is only in his early fifties, in my memory; just like the last twenty-five years never took place

16 hours ago, JDTaylor said:

The ribbon burner uses measured air, uses waaaay less gas, and gets so much hotter than the regular burners.  I mean, white hot.

A white hot ribbon burner forge would be exceptional. Mostly, they get to lite-yellow; which  is plenty hot enough for any work you might wish do in it.

What I'm always interested in seeing is a clear photo of the flames.

[Mikey98118]

Homemade 2” (7.2V) and 3” (12V) angle grinder to rotary tool chuck adapter

At present, you must build this attachment yourself; eventually, something like it will be marketed. Whether that happens in a couple of years or a couple of decades, who can say? If you want to wait for some OEM to market an obviously needed attachment, which will save you the expense of buying two of their power tools, instead of just one, go right ahead. It took more than seven decades for manufacturers to finally market a see-through safety shield for rotary tools.  People had been cutting out their own clear safety shields for years, from the top portions of plastic bottles. Safety shields didn’t interfere with sales of other power tools; they just couldn’t be made to cost a lot. Eventually, the Chinese could be bothered.

    Employing home-built attachments does not constitute “best practice,” safety wise—if  such attachments are marketed. However, this objection is presently irrelevant.  Looking at the example of clear rotary tool safety shields again; it would be foolish to build your own nowadays, but for all the previous decades when there was no other choice, building your own provided some safety; that was better than none. 

    The first part you will need is a very small drill chuck; there are two types to choose from. JTO is probably the smallest size keyed drill chuck on the market; they have opening ranges from 0.3 to 4mm (0.013” 0.156”); a comfortable range for use with rotary tool accessories. Several importers and drop shippers sell miniature Jacob (keyed) drill chuck kits for around $10 through Amazon.com, and other online sources).

    These chucks are small and tough enough to be run at the speeds suitable for use on 3” cordless angle grinders; they are normally mounted on DC motors, and used as miniature drills. It is common to find them sold with brass JTO to 1/8” mandrels for mounting to 1/8” motor spindles.

    All of these imported drill chucks, like most USA manufactured chucks, are machined from carbon steel—not stainless-steel. You will either keep them lightly oiled and dry, or they will rust. Most new chucks need tender loving care; after oiling them, baby them over sticking spots until they wear in a little bit. Open the chuck completely and put a drop of oil on all three jaws. Then, completely close and open the jaws a few times, to spread the oil over them. Next, put a drop of oil between the inner part of the chuck and the outer ring, then open and close the jaws a few more times, to finish oiling all moving parts; repeat this procedure occasionally, to lubricate internal surfaces and protect them against rust. So, what to use? Try white lithium grease, WB-40, 3-in-one oil, sewing machine oil, or cold 10W-30 motor oil. Turn the chuck upside down in a cardboard box or bag, before running the tool, to catch any excess oil that comes flying out. It is best to leave the jaws just closed (not tight closed), when the tool isn’t in use; this helps to keep dust and other shop debris out of its moving parts.

    Brass collet chuck sets are also used on DC motors; they consist of threaded mandrels, collet clamps, and threaded caps. being much smaller than any Jacob (keyed) chuck, collet chucks can be spun as fast as any power tool you are likely to find. Being solid brass, they do not rust. Being small, they are an attachment that takes up very little space in your tool kit. Brass collet chucks can be repurposed the same way that JTO size keyed chucks are, and you can buy them in three chuck kits for less money than one keyed chuck, giving you three chances to get the work done right, for a smaller investment. They are sold on Amazon.com. So, what is their down side? Some sets come with cheap thin collet clamps; then you must buy a good set of collet clamps for another five to seven dollars, to avoid run-out. Also, they cannot be made to hold accessories anywhere near as tightly as keyed chucks can; usually that doesn’t matter much, but with some accessories, (like tungsten carbide rotary files) it matters a lot.

Caution: Not all collet chucks have threaded mandrels with 1/8” holes for mounting on DC motor spindles. There is a newer version that is meant for mounting directly unto most (not all) rotary tools; this consists of a threaded cap nut and several collet clamps only, and is quite useless for repurposing into an attachment.

Both the 12V 3” and 7.2V 2” angle grinders employ an M5.8 threaded accessory mounting bolt, which screws into a rotating plate on the grinder, instead of a threaded spindle. This clever departure from the usual arrangement is what makes this attachment practical to build. If you are set up to enlarge the mandrel’s existing hole to 4.2 millimeter/s, while keeping it centered and parallel to the chuck’s axis, and then tap M5.8 threads into the mandrel’s enlarged hole, a screw can be run into the chuck’s mandrel; then its excess length cut off, and the end of the remaining thread filed to keep it from cross-threading, while being screwed in the angle grinder’s mounting hole.

     Anyone should be able to do an acceptable job of drilling and threading the mandrel on a drill press. The first thing you need to do, is to insert a long drill bit in the chuck, and check with an accurate square, to ascertain that the press table is at true right angles, in both axis, to the drill chuck. If so, press-fit the mandrel into the chuck, and place the chuck vertically in a press vice. Otherwise, employ a lathe for the work.

    You will find that customers of these chucks often complain about run-out, when employing them on a DC motor. The problem isn’t poor quality control on the chuck, or its brass mandrel. The mandrel’s design is simply too short to assure accuracy on the tiny DC motor spindle; this problem will be bypassed during your modifications to the mandrel.

    Installing a threaded screw into the mandrel allows a loose fit, unless you screw the thread in completely; check for movement to ensure that you don’t, just yet. Screw the thread completely into the angle grinder, and then screw it into the drill chuck, until it touches the grinder’s rotating plate. Insert a long drill bit into the chuck, and spin it, to check for run-out. If no run out is seen, continue finishing the attachment. If you have more run-out than is acceptable, the simple solution is to face off the end of the brass mandrel in a lathe. The slow and touchy solution is to check to see what direction the drill bit is leaning toward, ink mark it, and correct the face of the mandrel, by running it over #400 grit sandpaper, while frequently remounting the mandrel to check for changes, until the run-out is gone.

    Next, secure the thread in place on the mandrel with hard setting Thread-locker; be sure to give it time to completely set up. Grind or file off a little more off the screw’s end, so that it no longer bottoms out in the grinder’s face plate hole; this provides added assurance that the parts will spin true, as the slack between the screw threads and those in the tool’s threaded mounting hole should allow the chuck to perfectly match surfaces with the grinder’s face plate. Avoiding run-out is the goal in all this care.

   Thereafter, a keyed chuck can be mounted on the 3” angle grinder, using the chuck’s key as your wrench. 2” angle grinders should spin the smaller brass collet chuck more easily. The collet chuck might require needle pliers for a wrench, with some accessories. You should then be able to employ your angle grinder as a perfect little angle head rotary tool.

    You may have noted that this attachment is called a rotary tool chuck adapter; not a drill chuck adapter. 3” angle grinders spin way too fast for use as drills (19,500 RPM). At present, 2” angle grinders run slow enough (6000 RPM) to occasionally be used as drills, depending on what material is being drilled, and with what bit size.

 

[Mikey98118]

 The WHY of what goes where

When it comes to forge design, you must consider it as simply an extension of your burner; its job is to conserve, and efficiently use, the energy being generated by the burner--period.

Just as the burner is the engine of your forge, its own engine is contained in its gas and air entrances. Swirling the gas/air mix, and all the other details of most burner design depends on the efficient induction of air, using the stream of fuel gas via Bernoulli's Principle; this holds true of naturally aspirated, fan-induced, and fan-blown burners.

The oldest burner designs are strictly fan-blown, without employ8hg the aid of the gas stream to induce air at all. This is why such large squirrel cage fans were originally used with them.

The force of a burner flame must be limited; too much force will blow that flame right off of the burner's flame retention nozzle. Furthermore, the faster the flame the faster it will blow heat right through the forge.

Fortunately, with the help from its gas jet, even fan-blown burners, only need a minor amount of additional push. Why would any be needed? Multi-flame burners, (whether ribbon, ceramic head, or a drilled plate in the end of a pipe reducer used as a flame retention nozzle) can still benefit from some additional positive pressure--just not very much.

[Mikey98118]

Hybrid Burners.com gone?

Every few months I look up this site, since I started hearing about people not being able to contact them. Today's peak seems to show the site taken over entirely by someone selling a hodgepodge of information, etc. about anything even vaguely concerning heating equipment or plans. 

[Frosty]

Hmmmm, me either. Is he still with us?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

I had the impression that he had turned the business over to his son, years back. However, people reporting more than once that they couldn't get make contact to buy a burner, starting about two years back, seemed pretty ominous.

But, the whole site being taken over by someone, who seems uninterested in continuing to sell those burners, looks rather final.To bad that; they were very good burners, and this was the only commercial source for burner sizes from 3/8" to 1-1/4". This leaves quite a hole.

One more business falling victim to this economy?

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I have the site bookmarked and it will not load at all, guess it's defunct.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sails. ~ Semper Paratus