Greg in Maryland Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 Mike, Thanks for the feedback . I ordered the next smaller tip. It won’t arrive for a few days. I will reach out soon with the results. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 18, 2023 Author Share Posted February 18, 2023 You may need to be prepared for the new MIG tip to be a little on the too small size; in that case, you will simply need to use your torch tip cleaners to enlarge its orifice a couple thousandths of an inch, and no more! How will you know if this is needed? The flame will go from a white inner (primary) envelope and blue secondary envelope, to a blue primary envelope and no secondary envelope; but it will likely become a darker blue or even purple color, and the flame might become unstable (easily snuffed out). Before filing the new tip's orifice larger, you want to play with the choke, to see what changes that makes--not as a temporary fix--but to increase your knowledge of the burner. Increasing your burner smarts is a shaky concept, while it's going on, but completely pedestrian, when looking back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 Appreciate the feedback. I ordered 10 tips so I have some wiggle room to experiment. I am going to use 1/8 schedule 80 pipe so I can tap the 1/4-28 threads for the tip to make experimenting easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 18, 2023 Author Share Posted February 18, 2023 This brings us to one of the reasons I started using a parallel gas pipe, instead of a cross-pipe: the ability to adjust the distance from the tip of the gas jet (MIG tip) and the forward ends of the burner's air openings; this should end up somewhere between 3/8" and 1/4". This distance will provide the maximum inducted air in tube burners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 Mike, I did a little experiment while waiting for the .030 tips to arrive. I inserted 3 different sized wires into the tip to obstruct the gas flow. I verified the tip opening to be .042 and I kept the choke, pressure (15psi) and camera distance exactly the same. Pictures in order: Unobstructed tip .015 wire in tip .025 wire in tip .030 wire in tip example of how wire was inserted Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 18, 2023 Author Share Posted February 18, 2023 The wire is creating smaller and smaller flames, which is not surprising. Otherwise, there is basically no difference. I surmise, that the wire is tending to speed up the fuel gas that escapes around it, while the obstruction is holding back most of the force of the jet overall...for no loss or gain, in flame intensity. From Mikey's Dictionary: Surmise: A fancy way of saying, "this is just a guess." The last photo shows the end of the MIG tip is too far away from the forward end of the air slot, which could be improved by squaring the end of the slot into a rectangular configuration, and beveling the inside. Also, I am surprised to see such a thick choke sleeve without any bevel on the outside of its forward edge; that will interfere with burner performance, too...and I mean it will interfere a LOT! Did this burner ever run properly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 I can’t say if the burner ever ran right. I knew even less when I installed it and never really understood how one should operate until I started reading this page. Ignorance was bliss. For clarification: the burner seems to run best with the tip .5 inches in front of the forward air slots. I pulled it back for the picture. The current tip is a tweco 14t-35. I ordered some -30’s (next size smaller). Do you still feel the smaller tip to be beneficial? Or should I square and bevel the air slots and radius the choke sleeve first? Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 19, 2023 Author Share Posted February 19, 2023 Going to the smaller tip size is a fast fix. The burner changes are the recommended fix. That said, you are still likely to want the smaller MIG tip installed too. It is what I have always considered the best tip size in a 1" burner. I only say its likely; not certain, because the other changes I recommended may take this halfway to a vortex burner; that could allow the larger gas orifice to work well enough. I honestly don't know. If anyone has ever made these additional steps on a hybrid burner, they aren't talking about it If you are daring enough to try my proposals, I will back my bet with the promise to send you a 1" Mikey burner, if you're not pleased with your results. Why? Because I'm well aware how much you had to pay for this one. I believe the cash investment is all that has stopped others from trying these improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 Mike, Appreciate your help. I have no problem making the changes. I asked for help so I am willing to go all in. I will square the air slots and bevel 60 degrees. How much bevel do recommend on the choke sleeve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 19, 2023 Author Share Posted February 19, 2023 Sixty degrees; but that's just because I'm a picky. Forty-five degrees should do okay. I'm willing to go all in too. The promise stands as stated. I can't leave you down to the deep end, without a life preserver, or the others won't want play anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 I appreciate the offer. I like to tinker and learn. Will report back shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 Mike, I beveled the air slots and the choke. The knife edge formed by the bevel is about .03 thick. It seems to be more responsive to the choke setting now (ie. there is a wider range of green, light blue and darker blue flames). Pressure is 15psi. Question: The 1/8” nipple used for the gas accelerator is schedule 40 and 3” long. I ordered a 4” long schedule 80 assuming it will need to be shortened. How long do you suggest it be? Also: The distance between the front of the air openings and the forward cut off end is 9.125. Your book suggests 6.75. Not sure if it was engineered with a longer mixing tube because of the “funnel” design at the gas accelerator assembly? Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 20, 2023 Author Share Posted February 20, 2023 1 hour ago, Greg in Maryland said: Question: The 1/8” nipple used for the gas accelerator is schedule 40 and 3” long. I ordered a 4” long schedule 80 assuming it will need to be shortened. How long do you suggest it be? Only if you want to cut is shorter; the extra length harms nothing; nor does it contribute anything. However, expect another jump in performance from switching to the schedule #80 gas pipe. Speaking of improved performance, your last photo shops a flame that is right next door to perfect. No, there is nothing obvious that just looking at it that would show how close you are--unless you had been through this with a lot of guys. I can tell you that your just a little way from striking pay dirt, already BTW, nice work on those bevels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 Appreciate all your help. I will be in a brief holding pattern waiting for the smaller mig tips to arrive. They ship this Tuesday so I may have something to report by the weekend. Thanks for the compliment on the bevels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 20, 2023 Author Share Posted February 20, 2023 I am an infamous picky-butt (and a pain in one too). When anybody else's work is as careful, they deserve credit for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 20, 2023 Author Share Posted February 20, 2023 On 2/19/2023 at 8:44 AM, Greg in Maryland said: I like to tinker and learn. That sounds promising. Unfortunately for us, your burner problems are likely to end shortly; the hunt is on for a way to keep you around Perhaps an improved forge to shove it into? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 21, 2023 Author Share Posted February 21, 2023 The earliest models of 12V 3” angle grinders claimed to draw 300 watts. The newer grinders are stronger than those first models were, but if you think they really draw 500 watts, you need a keeper. These grinders are strong enough to do delicate work without taking all day, and weak enough not to be dangerous—if you pay attention. If you did use a 500 what tool, surface cutting and beveling with it would be quite hazardous. Even the strongest angle grinder will be limited by the accessories you mount on it; that is especially true with cutoff discs. Thick (3/32”) resin bonded cutoff discs are much slower cutting than the thinner Weiler, Shark, Miller, or 3M cutoff discs; thin discs are more expensive, because they must be more carefully constructed to hold up with as little as one-third the material thickness to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 21, 2023 Author Share Posted February 21, 2023 Wear safety glasses and a face shield, when trying to peer around a steel guard, during a cut. 3” diameter grinding wheels come from 3/16” to ¼” thickness; they aren’t cheap, but cutoff discs are too thin to be safely used for grinding. Flap discs work better than grinding wheels for many tasks, but the 3/8” arbor holes on 3” diameter flap discs are not likely to fit well on these angle grinders. Some people use 3” diameter Roloc flap discs by drilling out the center with 6mm dill bits; obviously, I can’t recommend doing that, because modifying accessories does not constitute “best practice.” What you choose to do is your business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Quote On 2/20/2023 at 6:24 PM, Mikey98118 said: That sounds promising. Unfortunately for us, your burner problems are likely to end shortly; the hunt is on for a way to keep you around Perhaps an improved forge to shove it into? Mike, You must have ESP! I assure you that I was contemplating scripting a message requesting your input on an “improved” forge. I already started lurking on the Gas Forges thread ( I am up to page 12 of 80). As I shared earlier “ignorance was bliss” when I started playing with fire. I built the forge as a box design with the burner top dead center and centered front to back. I tinker with knife making so that is the primary purpose of the forge. I used 2600 degree ifb for the 2 1/2” hot face and have 2-3 inches of superwool ht for the cold face. There is a 3200 degree ifb incorporated into the floor for flame impingement. The thermal couple is in the back of the forge. It will heat up to 2000 degrees f on 10psi and when up to temp hold at 5psi. I have never timed how long it takes to get to 2000 degrees but I guess it to be around 20-30 minutes? I am looking forward to your input. Regards.y Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 22, 2023 Author Share Posted February 22, 2023 I suggest we start with some back and forth about your present forge. I see some apparent contradictions. The digital readout is only 2056 (F?), yet the opening shows a nearly white hot interior (that should indicate about 500 F higher internal temperature). Is the photo showing the same incandescence as your vision? Is the thermostat maxed out? Next, the opening looks very small for a 1" burner's exhaust. We need to go into this more deeply. And, of course, there is the whole question of whether or not you're satisfied with your forge overall, or if you're looking to build something fancier Note that I'm just asking; not suggesting. Burners are all about performance, but the same guy who wants more from his burner, may take any remarks about the forge is rests in quite personally; as though I were kicking his dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Mike, I took those pictures a long time ago (2016) but they were taken at the same time. The time stamp on the pictures shows they were within 1 minute of each other. The T-Rex burner is a 3/4" and not a 1". The thermal couple is in the extreme rear of the forge and only protruding 1" into the chamber from top dead center. The display is in Fahrenheit and it was not maxed out. I did verify its calibration at the time using an ice bath. It may be the exposure of the photo or the placement of the thermal couple causing the contradiction. The overall dimensions of the chamber are 4.5" x 5" x 14". I would like to accomplish 2 things: 1) Get the present forge running as efficiently as possible so I can start playing again. 2) Build another forge that takes advantage of everything previously learned to create a high-performance unit. I assume this will include building some Mikey burners which is something that excites me. Last but not least - No worries on hurting my feelings. You can call my baby ugly and I would probably agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 So, the answer to apparent contradictions will likely end up as "all the above." .O30" This is the usual deal. It is seldom that we get to point the finger at one outstanding issue and say "ah ha!" You said that the burner is 3/4" size. Normally that would present a problem, since the proper MIG tip for that size burner is the tip for .O23" welding wire--not .O30" welding wire. However, with the improvements you made, .O30" tips may work well enough. If not, your next tip change should be to .O25" tips (not .O23"), because of the improved flow you well have in the burner. The last photo, shows an oversize exhaust opening. This is excellent, if you include a brick baffle wall placed between 1" and 2" away from the opening. This arrangement seams too crude to most people. However, it is temporary; endless improvements on it can be made...later. Why later? To give the operator time enough to wrap his head around the whys of baffle walls, before trying anything fancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in Maryland Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 I will get some .025 tips just in case and will also fabricate a method to hold a brick baffle 1-2" away from the opening. Do you recommend installing the burner top dead center or should it be angled? I have to fabricate a new burner collar and install new top bricks so now would be the time to know if the burner orientation should change. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 Some people think that a top center burner that faces straight down will heat their stock faster. If the stock is small, and the forge is just started, or doesn't heat into yellow to white incandescence, that will be true. That having the flame impinge directly on your work will usually cause scaling is also true; the only exception being very short flames ( from multi-flame burner heads) held well away from the heating parts. Ideally, you want your forge set up to heat parts primarily from radiant energy, backed up by very high temperatures in the forge's exhaust atmosphere--never from flame impingement. So, aiming your burner to give the maximum distance from flame tip to work is right up there with swirling the forge atmosphere in importance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 On 2/22/2023 at 4:32 AM, Greg in Maryland said: Build another forge that takes advantage of everything previously learned to create a high-performance unit. I assume this will include building some Mikey burners which is something that excites me. So, it's never to soon to start cogitating what such a gas forge will be like. (1) There are tunnel forges; these have been the standard gas forge for way too long. Unless you want to build a combination forge, and casting furnace, they are past their pull date. (2) Oval forges, are an improvement over tunnel forges, which allows larger or more work pieces to be heated in the same volume as tunnel forges. So do properly designed box forges, but oval forges travel well, and shed exterior heat just as nicely as tunnel forges; box forges don't. (3) "D" shaped forges, started out being built from mail boxes, but are easily constructed of light guage sheet metal; they give increased internal room for heating parts, but lack they ability for air to cool their bottom half that oval forges have. Ribbon burners can be mounted on one side of their floor, aiming up and a little inward. (4) Clam shell forges are best restricted to heating scrolls or bowl shapes. (5) Brick pile forges are best described as an essentially variable design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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