Squaring hooks to the wall????

[VaughnT]

Maybe my frustration is blinding me to something obvious, but I've about reached the end of the rope and thought I'd reach out to the collective wisdom of IFI.

One of my signature pieces is what I call the 'big nail wall hook', and as the name might hint, it's a hook made from a big nail.  The problem I'm having is getting the leg of the nail such that it will come off the wall at 90º.   My tooling is basic, no fly press or power hammer, so I'm spending an inordinate about of time with the hooks in the vise, tweaking them with the turning forks.

I have a form made and can hot-bend the hooks for consistency, but getting the dimples for the screws is a horse of a different color.  Right now, I punch the holes first, using my guillotine tool to hold a round-nosed punch.  

The real issue comes when I bend the nails around the form, trying to keep the flattened face (where the divots are) perpendicular to the bends.  Nothing I've tried keeps the alignment so the end product shoots straight out from the wall.  While this isn't a problem when you only have one hook on the all, when you like up several of them to make a coat rack or the like.... well, it's about as ugly as the south end of a northbound mule!

Like with anything else, consistency makes a huge difference in how the product is perceived by the customers.  Spending 20 minutes tweaking each hook to get it reasonably square and plumb is just not working smart.  

I figure there's got to be a better way and I'm just not seeing it.  

 

So, IFI, what are you thinking?  What have I missed?

[ThomasPowers]

Sounds like you need to build a fixture to bend them around.  Perhaps a piece of channel  with a hole drilled from the solid side right by one of the sides and a couple of pieces of sq stock welded to the backside to make a slot to fit the nail and the far side dressed to make that bend and another couple of pieces to make a slot and then a large hole drilled in the farside to allow the head to be bent in place.  To use you heat the stock drop the pointy end vertical down the first hole and clamp one or both of the screw indents with a modified visegrip then bend the rest down the slots using a wooden or leather mallet on the hot metal, make the far bend and adjust the head and Bob's your uncle!

I do something like that making cubical hooks from the 1' long nails, save that I flatten a section and then heat and clamp it to the right sized piece of sq tubing and bend the sq loop and then take it to the vise and insert it sideways and bend the head loop freehand as my customers do not want something that looks machine made...

[Buzzkill]

Are there pins in your bending form that give a snug fit to your screw holes?  Without seeing your form it's hard (for me at least) to make a good suggestion.  Assuming your holes are consistent in distance between them and diameter it shouldn't be too hard to make something where you slip the holes over the pins and maybe even make a quick clamp device from a piece of pipe the right diameter cut lengthwise to hold it securely in place (think vice grips for round stock with one part fastened to the form) while you make the bends.

[jeremy k]

Like Thomas says "modified vise grip" - weld a small ball on 2 vise grips, clamp the vise grips tight on the screw divots on a heavier plate(or what ever that is strong) play the oxy torch both between the divots until they seat, and at the bottom of the hook for alignment and your golden.

[VaughnT]

Hmm....

The form is just a section of metal bent and welded to a hardy shank so I can bend the two 90º in one movement.  I'll have to try coming up with some kind of mechanism that holds the bent hook square to the anvil's face so I can hammer in the divots after the hook has been shaped.

I'll take a photo of the form next time I'm in the shop.

[Frosty]

You're doing it backwards. Make the bends first and use them to index to counter sink and punch. Two flat verticals, say angle iron welded on a base with just enough space for the nail shank to pass between them. A quick bend in a jig, slide it into the indexing tool till it stops on the nail head and your punches are aligned perfectly over the shank and there are two bolster holes in the base right where you need them. No guessing, no fuss no muss. Two heats max, no tweaking or so minimal you'll be the only person can see it.

Frosty The Lucky.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Frosty

[VaughnT]

You're doing it backwards. Make the bends first and use them to index to counter sink and punch. Two flat verticals, say angle iron welded on a base with just enough space for the nail shank to pass between them. A quick bend in a jig, slide it into the indexing tool till it stops on the nail head and your punches are aligned perfectly over the shank and there are two bolster holes in the base right where you need them. No guessing, no fuss no muss. Two heats max, no tweaking or so minimal you'll be the only person can see it.

Frosty The Lucky.

Frosty, that just might be the ticket!  Just have to fabricate something that's easy to get the hook into and secured so I don't lose the heat.  As I'm thinking, it would make each hook a three-heat operation, but it would also kill the tweaking phase of the operation.

[Frosty]

If you put a cross bar between the angle irons so the head end of the hook has to be pushed under it it will pin the hook to the jig. Heck, maybe a fold down punch holder so you just flip it down and hit it on each button. maybe a combination counter sink and hole punch. It'd take a bigger hammer but. . .

If I think of something else I'll post it. I keep seeing you making both bends horizontally around the angle irons flat on the base plate.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Rashelle]

I'm with Frosty. I read the post and thought "why do the holes first?" Makes sense to me to do the bends then the holes. Much easier to align them after the bends then before. For me at least when I do similar items.

[ausfire]

I always do the holes first especially on leaf hooks. I don't like doing all the drawing out and bending and forging the leaves and then stuff up the holes. Especially on round stock, punching holes is dodgy so I get them right first and then do the easy stuff.

[VaughnT]

I always do the holes first especially on leaf hooks. I don't like doing all the drawing out and bending and forging the leaves and then stuff up the holes. Especially on round stock, punching holes is dodgy so I get them right first and then do the easy stuff.

That was my thinking, D.

I can't punch the holes on these or it would mess up the bulge formed by making the divot, and drilling out the screw holes is real easy when the rest of the nail is straight.  

I've got an idea for a jig/vise that will hold the nail vertical on the anvil.  At least, I think it will.  

[Eddie Mullins]

Maybe I am missing something, but since the hook is round, and it couldn't be seen, why not just twist the holes back to 90 if they get out of alignment? You should be able to do it in the same heat you bend it. Slip a drift or something into the holes and align to your hook. I also agree though that clamping it securely when bending should be prevent the issue.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Eddie Mullins

[arftist]

What I find disturbing is the idea of spending 20 minutes to square one hook. Sure you don't mean 20 seconds? 

[Frosty]

Normally I'd agree about the sequence for punching screw holes I do it right after doing whatever shaft treatment I'm doing, usually twists but maybe a bark texture.

However the hooks in question aren't textured and they're a production run. This has me looking for ways to use the part's shape to assist with the process. The nail head is a natural stop so I'd use it to index the bends and punching. The nail being round means there is no reason to make the bends in any particular way so do them the easiest way possible. Natural index/stop and insensitive, bend first.

90* bends are what's important to the finished product is another reason to do them first. I always to the hardest or trickiest part first unless there's a good reason not to. I try really hard to NOT let "how I've always done it" rule me in the shop. Dad drummed that into us from the beginning, along with a lot of other stuff.

So, once the bends are made punching and counter sinking the holes is just a matter of centering over round stock. Tool making 102, only a little intermediate problem. For the purposes of discussion I'm assuming the nail shaft is 5/16" dia. Punching is the only way to go, drilling is too slow and drill bits WANT to wander on a round surface. Making the punche is tools 101 but we're needing a combination hole/counter sink punch and need a tool to make the tool. First drill a hole the dia. of your desired screw hole then counter sink it. This is the tool to make the tool starting with say 1/2" round stock grind the punch to diameter as a button on the end, heat it to forging temp and drive it into the die. This is your combination hole and counter sink punch. It may take a couple tries to get it right but this is what you're looking for.

Now you have the punch you need the guide. Using a piece of 1/2" ID pipe drill a carefully centered and  90* 5/16" hole through the pipe at the 5" mark from one end. Now carefully saw the pipe off centered on the hole. That's it.

That guide will guide the punch dead center on the 5/16" nail and stand 90* on the jig base. The guide being pipe will give the nail plenty of room to swell with the punch and counter for a nice effect.

To get the holes positioned is as easy as putting a mark on the base plate, the nail head will index the part lengthwise when it hits the vertical bars and just the slightest groove in the base plate will prevent the hot hook shaft from shifting.

I say two heats MAX, one with practice. 30 seconds after it comes out of the forge and no tweaking. It'll take longer to brush and finish.

Frosty The Lucky.

[yahoo2]

if the nails are not high tensile a long pipe lever and body weight should do it easily

edit, the right edge of the notch should be beveled like the other end so the nail can be removed after the second bend

Edited August 7, 2015 by yahoo2

[VaughnT]

Maybe I am missing something, but since the hook is round, and it couldn't be seen, why not just twist the holes back to 90 if they get out of alignment? You should be able to do it in the same heat you bend it. Slip a drift or something into the holes and align to your hook. I also agree though that clamping it securely when bending should be prevent the issue.

Eddie, I tried that, but the doing anything to the holes after they've been formed really distorts them so they look atrocious.  Ideally, I'd like to keep the clean circular rim around the countersink undisturbed.

What I find disturbing is the idea of spending 20 minutes to square one hook. Sure you don't mean 20 seconds? 

Try it, arftist.  It takes boucoup time to get the shank lined up so the horizontal portion comes off the wall nice and square.  You have to clamp the hook in the vise, tweak it a bit, pull it out and test it against a flat surface, put it back in the vise to tweak it just another hair, then pull it out to test it, then put it back in the vise to twist it two hairs back the way you just came....  
 

Natural index/stop and insensitive, bend first.

I say two heats MAX, one with practice. 30 seconds after it comes out of the forge and no tweaking. It'll take longer to brush and finish.

Not sure what "insensitive, bend first" means, but I'd certainly like to get this down to a two-heat process with results 'to spec'!  Making a punch that would create the screw hole and countersink in one movement would be nice, but everything's predicated upon doing it in such a way that the holes are lined up with the bent portion.  That's the sticky wicket at the moment.  

if the nails are not high tensile a long pipe lever and body weight should do it easily

edit, the right edge of the notch should be beveled like the other end so the nail can be removed after the second bend

That's about what my jig looks like, though cold bending doesn't work.  Medium-carbon alloy and work-hardened at the factory... very tough to bend a tight radius on those babies if they're not warmed up a bit first!

 

The good news is that I think I might have come up with a way to make a vise/jig that will hold the hook perpendicular to the anvil face so I can pound in the countersinks.  I'll have to double check my scrap pile, but I'm pretty sure I saw a nice 90º fixture in there that would work perfectly as a hardy tool and just needs a stem and some kind of clamping mechanism to hold the hook.  I'll report back tomorrow with my find....

[Eddie Mullins]

Eddie, I tried that, but the doing anything to the holes after they've been formed really distorts them so they look atrocious.  Ideally, I'd like to keep the clean circular rim around the countersink undisturbed.

You wouldn't actually be doing anything to the holes, the twist would occur below the holes in the body of the hook. When making the bend, the area with the holes should not be hot, but the area below where the bend is occurring should. Make your bends and then quickly slip something into one of the holes for leverage  and a guide to align and twist the body of the hook so the holes are 90 degrees to the bend. Hopefully that makes more sense. It shouldn't take much force at all with no distortion to the holes.

[Frosty]

What I mean by the bends being "insensitive" I mean it's easy to make two bends on the same plane the only operation that requires any coordinated precision is punching the holes. With the bends made they form a 2D reference plane.

I have a few 22d spikes. If I can find them I'll show you what I mean.

Frosty The Lucky.

[VaughnT]

You wouldn't actually be doing anything to the holes, the twist would occur below the holes in the body of the hook. When making the bend, the area with the holes should not be hot, but the area below where the bend is occurring should. Make your bends and then quickly slip something into one of the holes for leverage  and a guide to align and twist the body of the hook so the holes are 90 degrees to the bend. Hopefully that makes more sense. It shouldn't take much force at all with no distortion to the holes.

Eddie, I tried it like that a few times, but getting the holes to line up with the shank so the hooks come off the wall at the right angle is either very tricky... or I'm missing something simple.  Even a few degrees off 90 is very apparent when you put it up on the wall to test it out, and then you have to go through all the motions again.  That tweaking to get it right is a huge time suck.

 

Frosty, I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with.  I need to get out into the shop today to work on a holding fixture.

[arftist]

Eddie, I tried it like that a few times, but getting the holes to line up with the shank so the hooks come off the wall at the right angle is either very tricky... or I'm missing something simple.  Even a few degrees off 90 is very apparent when you put it up on the wall to test it out, and then you have to go through all the motions again.  That tweaking to get it right is a huge time suck.

 

Frosty, I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with.  I need to get out into the shop today to work on a holding fixture.

Hammer a flat between the screwholes. Align in bend jig with clamp. Done. 2 heats max.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Do you have an arbor press? If so you can easily do both bends at the same time with a jig,

I am with Frosty, bend first, then smoosh the divots, and punch the holes in a jig. The jig will take a little work to make, but it will save tons of time. It could be made so that it is snug against the nail, or one sided so that you vise grip the nail to it. I am thinking of a punch holder that has two punches held at the proper spacing, so all you have to do is slide the hot end in, and give them a couple of whacks to set the divots. Remove the divot punches, and install the hole punches, or just drill afterwards. The jig does the spacing for you.

I would bet these could be bent cold with something like a Hossfeld bender. Just bending over a block won't get the sharp 90° desired without some sort of follower. Maybe a hammered top tool to finish setting them might work with what you have already. A larger setting block won't make marks like a hammer will.

[ThomasPowers]

Hmm 1 piece of pretty heavy angle iron with a hardy stem welded out from one side leaving the other side straight up and down and normal to the anvil face---may need to hot true it after welding the stem now clamp another similar piece to it on the anvil and drill  a vertical hole between them that will hold the piece tightly. then mill. file. drill a horizontal that will hold the stock straight on the anvil face for punching the divots.  The stock is held in a plane so you can punch correctly.  Fun part is working out the clamping mechanism to be fast and easy.  I can think of several methods for that all ready...

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

A cam clamp would also work .

[yahoo2]

That is the trick with bending, it needs to be stretched as it is rolled, I usually have a lever at 90 degrees right up close to the jig clamped behind on the rods shaft with some doctored over centre vice grips for the stretching then a second pipe lever to help with the bending. I guess the nails could be tempered/softened in the forge in batches while you have it running for other jobs if that would make them easier to work.

[SmoothBore]

You're doing it backwards.

Frosty The Lucky.

Exactly.

Bend the "hook" first, ... and then clamp it to any kind of vertical "fixture", while you punch the holes.

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A general note about "bending" .....

I make a lot of 3" - 8" diameter chain links, from 3/4" rebar, ... for use in "Forestry" type tire chains. ( Used on Tractors and Log Skidders )

Slipping a pipe over the rebar, gives you lots of control over the position and degree of bend.

 

.

Edited August 16, 2015 by SmoothBore