Matt Smith Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 i was wondering if there is another metal to smelt with aluminium to make it a bronze color such as copper. i know copper with a small amount of aluminium is considered a bronze but i want a mixture with a higher aluminum content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Matt: You keep asking questions about casting here. Sure some of us cast but casting isn't the reason for this forum, we blacksmith. I'm not telling you to go away when I suggest you ask your casting questions on a casting forum but at least you'll be in the right ballpark. Before you do though you might want to do a little research, folk on a casting forum will give you more static for misusing "smelt" so grievously incorrectly. To your question I believe the answer is NO, alloying al with other metals is not how it's colored. I don't know of any al alloys that are not silvery grey. Think anodizing or sputtering, maybe metallic spraying, for colors other than al colored. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Smith Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 ok first of all I primarrly blacksmith so casting is a new field for me I figured since this site has a casting section someone here might have info or insight to this. Granted I know info in an actual casting site would probbly be the best to go to but The thing is the information I have found here over the years to very helpful and overall I trust you guys and your opinions. I dont know any sites other than this one for similar information and to be frank between working fulltime being in a masters program, being an assistant pastor amongst other things I really dont have freetime to spend hrs searching websites. Dont get me wrong I dont mind doing the leg work but at the moment I spend about 30 hr a week alone in homework. So I was looking for some helpful insight if maybe someone has expermented with this and i also got the idea from this site someone years ago mentioned on a post to mix copper with alumium ti make a bronze so sorry if my questuin seemed stupid. I alsi appoligize for all the typos im using a smart phone at the moment cause my labtop crashed and my hands are ti big fir this freakin small keypad lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozenforge Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Look into anodizing as Frosty said. It can be done on a small scale in a garage or shop. Different chemicals used in the process result in different colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 you do not smelt anything with aluminum, the Boxite is smelted to get aluminum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammer Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 To get the bronze color requires a lot of copper. You can melt a small amount of Aluminum and then add copper, the copper will dissolve in the Aluminum at Aluminum temps. I believe you will have to get to at least 80% Copper to have color and any less copper will make a very brittle alloy. I've got some I made at about 50/50 and it shattered when I dropped it on concrete. You can get a good color with Aluminum Bronze but it can be difficult to cast. a much easier alloy would be Silicon Bronze or Tin Bronze. I do mostly casting and a little Blacksmithing. I mainly got into forge work to make things to go with my castings. I was glad to find a Blacksmith site that had a foundry and casting section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Smith Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 thanks for the replies im sorry about using the word smelt i ment melt i know that smelting involves extracting metal deposits from ore. my plan is to cast some mace heads using lost foam casting mainly for decoration not actual use. I know al alloys can be stong but id like them to look a lot darker almost like cast iron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobd Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I know nothing about this at all, so I'm not even going to try and give any advice other than bringing it up. Wouldn't electroplating work? I remember the mythbusters doing it with the clay pot Baghdad batteries. So it seems small scale manageable. Like I said, I know next to nothing about doing it, I'm more curious to hear why it would or wouldn't be a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Jake, that's what they're suggesting with the anodizing. Agree with the above, only works much as a metal with a lot of copper or a little, and if you make real Al bronze, usually needs heat treating. (which I don't know how to do, but know it needs to be done.) Consider trying bronze/brass? Not sure of your casting experience, I'm guessing you already have been there, but backyardmetalcasting.com is a good source for beginners, and has links to a lot of other good resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobd Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I didn't know that's what anodizing was. I've only ever seen the black coating that comes on knives referred to as anodized. Cool! I guess I need to read about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 the really bright colours you see on ali fittings for bikes and some performance parts for cars is anodizing, IIRC it is an acid treatment that passivates a layer on the surface and can include a dye, it is reasonably hard wearing, better than the ali under it. it can be done at home, a friend a few miles away has done it in the past Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobd Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I am very intrigued now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 It's not proper electroplating, depositing another metal. It uses dc similarly to build up a protective oxide layer, which can be different colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobd Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Hence the "anode" like beginning to the word, never occurred to me. Interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 AUTOCORRECT, ARGHHHHH! I am forever editing out the spelling corrections this stupid software keeps making. Please forget I said anything, you have my sympathy sir. Then again you're saying an awful lot of nice, complimentary things about us, I'm thinking maybe we should start to worry. <grin> What is your intent for the alloy? Are you looking for Bronze or just coloring Aluminum? How important is weight and or strength, corrosion resistance? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Smith Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Im wanting an alloy thats strong but lightweight with an dark color. my intent is for mostly decorative purposes but I want something thats not brittle. Ive casted AL before thats why I started there ive considered brass as well. I found online that thete is a chemical called alumium black that is essentially gun blue for alumium gun parts Ive considered trying that and seeing the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Look into this: From the www.britannica.comduralumin, strong, hard, lightweight alloy of aluminum, widely used in aircraft construction, discovered in 1906 and patented in 1909 by Alfred Wilm, a German metallurgist; it was originally made only at the company Dürener Metallwerke at Düren, Germany. (The name is a contraction of Dürener and aluminum.) The original composition has been varied for particular applications; it may contain about 4 percent copper, 0.5–1 percent manganese, 0.5–1.5 percent magnesium, and, in some formulations, some silicon. After heat treatment and aging, these alloys are comparable to soft steel in strength.Duralumin alloys are relatively soft, ductile, and workable in the normal state; they may be rolled, forged, extruded, or drawn into a variety of shapes and products. Their light weight and consequent high strength per unit weight compared with steel suit them for aircraft construction. Because aluminum loses corrosion resistance when alloyed, a special laminated sheet form called alclad is used for aircraft construction; it has thin surface layers of pure aluminum covering the strong duralumin core.Also look into Zamak (read the properties lower down on the chart)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozenforge Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Most modern aircraft built within last 40 years or so use aluminum alloy 2024T3 for most areas and 7075 for areas where higher strength is needed. This is the modern version of Duralumin. Parts with compound curves and complicated shapes are initially shaped in 2024-O which is very soft and formable. It is then heat treated to 2024T42. I always laugh when the ads on tv brag about something being made of Aircraft Grade Aluminum! All I can think is "Oh great it will crack and corrode". One of the biggest concerns in the aviation industry is aging aircraft due to the limitations of aluminum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 The only thing with duralumin, is that isn't it still a silvery gray? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 and then you anodize it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 any colour you want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tornado220 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I am primarily a machinist, I make race/performance/classic car parts so my blacksmithing has to be taken to ID as Dave is my local expert :-) However I did look into annodising, a few things to consider..... 1) the DYLON dyes can be excellent although the newer stuff apparently DOES NOT work be warned 2) Annodising can be hard or soft, it is normally soft, although even the "soft" is harder than the parent metal 3) You will need a few "tanks" and storage vessels, so think of the space requirements carefully, do it in the kitchen and it will be instent termination of marriage ! 4) Timed accuratly and you will get great results. I will set up my Annodising tanks in the new year, anyone who wishes to do likewise, maybe a good idea to discuss between us, so we can get it right :-) PS, anyone with any experience with die casting ? As I am about to produce moulds to make some die cast aluminium parts, the sand cast parts lose too much detail :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Anodizing is the process of controlled oxidation of the surface. Aluminum will naturally start to anodize as soon as it is cut. It forms a non conductive surface, that is one reason why the surface needs to be scuffed/prepped before welding. I have tried to TIG weld anodized parts, and the arc never gets going. Hard anodizing is used on items like propeller blades. My Dad built a system at one of the air bases he was stationed at to anodize the blades on the C130s. The most important part of the system was the electrical current controls. To test the surface they used a multimeter, as long as they showed an open circuit the anodizing was sufficient. It will be tough to make aluminum look like iron simply by anodizing alone. Paint would be a better choice in my opinion because you can make it look like anything you want a lot easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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