Blacksmith or Farrier ????

[SReynolds]

What is your opinion? It seems to be more opinion than fact.........

 

In the horse world/industry, the folks who make or install horse shoes are known as blacksmiths. Look it up in any book. Visit a race track. The building there that the felow works in is called the blacksmith shop. Even says so above the door.

 

Secretariate, Ruffian, Tom Fool, Tim Tam, Dr Fager, Demascus, Buckpasser. All shoed by a blacksmith

 

Can anyone enlighten me in todays age, as to why "blacksmiths" don't like to be refered to as a farrier or one who "shoes horses" ??????

 

I realize that years and years ago........the guy who shoes horsed WAS, in fact, the BLACKSMITH. They aquired the job by default if they wanted to make extra money. So, the general public has itcorrect in a way................the blacksmiths job it to shoe horses.

 

At my shop in the historical society, I tell folks that year ago they did, but today, the farrier shoes horses. 

 

So iether way is correct,,,,right?

 

I just don't care for folks entering the shop and asking me where the horse are. Ugh! I make tools and hardware.

[beammeupscotty]

I believe that at one time the two terms were more or less synonymous, but in the modern age the two trades have largely separated into two different trades.  While a farrier may do more than just deal with horseshoes and horse's hooves, I suspect it would be very unusual for someone who considers himself/herself a blacksmith to ever touch a horseshoe, unless they are making something decorative out of it, and even rarer to touch a horse's hoof.

 

I suspect you will simply have to accustom yourself to explaining the difference between a blacksmith and a farrier, just like you will have to continue to explain the difference between the mild steel that most blacksmiths work with today, and "wrought iron" which has incorrectly been applied to describe any forged item. 

[SmoothBore]

 

So iether way is correct,,,,right?

 

No.

 

A Blacksmith is an Ironworker, ... who may, ... or may not, ... also Shoe a Horse.

 

The Blacksmith posesses Ironworking skills, far, far beyond that which is required to fit Horseshoes to a Horse.

 

 

A Farrier is a person who Shoes Horses, ... and rarely, if ever, actually "makes" a Horseshoe, ... but who quite often heats and shapes Horseshoes, in order to properly "fit" them to the Horse.

 

A Farriers true "skill", ... lies in His ability to perform "Orthopedic Adjustments", ... in order to compensate for injuries, disease and deficiencies in the Physical Aspects of the Horse.

 

A good Farrier is much more of a "Foot Doctor" than a "Shoe Maker".

 

 

Neither Profession benefits from being "lumped together" with the other, ... and deserves to have their individuality respected.

 

 

 

.

[SReynolds]

I agree; a farrier is a good foot doctor. 

 

However, realize that in order to be a journeyman farrier, that is a full-out farrier in the full sence of the word, one must MAKE four shoes and shoe the horse. In one hour.

 

As well as the fact that most if not all traveling farriers carry steel stock and a hitch mounted shear to cut the stock to length. Thus making shoes from steel stock.

 

It take me about 20/25 minutes simply to make a shoe that looks like a shoe, but probably would never hold up under a horse.

 

I just thought of this; there is a local farrier supply store cuz they sell farrier supplies, but it is known as a blacksmith supply store. 

 

Word.

[ThomasPowers]

Wow what a very Americentric view. Historically In Europe the blacksmithing crafts in a stable settled situation were often quite separate while in the American frontier if you only had one guy smithing he did it *ALL*.

Then, as mentioned, due to the rise of factories the local blacksmith often became a generalist and often even added in welding and car repair to eke things out. Again "the local blacksmith" or "village blacksmith". In the cities the various blacksmithing shops tended to specialize and the shop that produced rings for further machining would NOT shoe a horse or iron a wagon (See a smithy in Lauf ADP, Germany for an example of this...)

As America tends to romanticize our frontier background---remember how many Presidents ran on having been born in a log cabin?---we tend to romanticize the frontier blacksmith who did everything---even when they didn't! (Knives and Swords tended to be imported from places that specialized in making them; though some American cutlers would hilt them here.)

In many places the art of shoeing was looked down upon as horses were considered backward compared to "modern vehicles" and so a highly trained tool smith in a city might be upset at being compared to a "country bumpkin" smith---like a Neurosurgeon might object to being lumped with a rural GP.

Nowadays horses tend to be luxury items in many places and their care and support a good business

But people are people and have crazy ideas picked up from Hollywood and popular culture...

I went through a phase when I was insulted when asked about shoeing; but more research and greater width of experience has toned that down and so I'm not like the German Smith who would throw a hammer at you if you asked *him* to shoe a horse when he was a *Kunstschmied*!

[Roy Ubu]

"Secretariate, Ruffian, Tom Fool, Tim Tam, Dr Fager, Demascus, Buckpasser. All shoed by a blacksmith"

 

Thought he was a "plater".

[HWHII]

So after finishing up a season working in a museum as a blacksmith historical interpreter. I can tell you with out a doubt the vast amount of the public thinks all a blacksmith does or did is shoe horses! It was fun to educate them what a blacksmith actually did do and what kind of work we do today!

[SmoothBore]

 

"Secretariate, Ruffian, Tom Fool, Tim Tam, Dr Fager, Demascus, Buckpasser. All shoed by a blacksmith"

Not to put too fine a point on it, ... they were actually "shod".

 

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Thought he was a "plater".

 

Haven't heard that term in a "coons age".  :P

 

 

 

 

.

[Matt_K]

Farriers, were originally also Veterinarians. Then France opened up a veterinary school, (1848?) and further subdivided things. These days, as mentioned, I think most farriers call themselves that to differentiate themselves from 'ironhangers' or 'shoers' in that they feel they've spent a lot of time working on things like anatomy, biomechanics, and basic medical information, as well as being able to make an orthopedic shoe. They aren't 'just shoers', they're farriers.

Another thing we overlook these days, is that the local blacksmith wasn't always a generalist either. If the town was big enough for several blacksmiths to be employed, they would often specialize so as to get a larger piece of the forging pie. Someone might specialize in harness, another in wagon accoutrements, another in cooking implements, etc.

[j.w.s.]

We've got 18 of those 4 footed money munchers and trust me I'd be a lot less poor if I were a farrier instead of a blacksmith. When asked, which is about daily, I reply that I dont work with anything bigger and dumber than I am - which incidentally is why I divorced my first wife.

J

[George Geist]

I suppose I ought to stir the pot on this one in the never ending pursuit of self amusement.

 

Anybody who hammers iron or steel is a blacksmith. That includes a horse shoer. (yes written correctly it is in fact 2 words)

Not necessarily do all smiths shoe, many don't. Nonetheless those who specialize in that aspect of the trade are in fact blacksmiths.

Same as all gunsmiths are machinists but not all machinists know anything about guns.

 

Now, for the fun part....

The term "farrier" didn't enter into common American parlance until the 1970's. The American definition before it was changed through Orwellian newspeak meant a floorman. Someone who just trimmed and shod doing little to nothing in the forge. "Firemen" or "Blacksmiths" did most of the forging and shoemaking in the old shops and were a little higher on the foodchain as far as skill and wages than "Farriers" or "Floormen".

 

The way it entered into common parlance was as a result of a lawsuit in NY by a shoeing school graduate who couldn't pass his Union test at a racetrack. The individual sued a school for failing to prepare him for a career as promised. The judge in that case ruled that the school had to from then on refer to their graduates as "Farriers" not "Blacksmiths" or "Horse Shoers". Thus, it is an earned title, whereas anybody who wants to can call themself "Farrier".

 

When the American Farriers Association was formed in the early '70s they began really forcefully harping on that word and through a 40 year effort have succeeded in many areas of changing the definition among many people. The British definition is entirely different. In British English a "Farrier" is in fact a half arsed vet type. Many Americans like to think of themselves that way so prefer that appellation.

 

The reason that word isn't used on racetracks is twofold.1) First off old habits die hard on the backside. It is a stronghold of the old Union ways even in unorganized tracks so most of them won't use that word.2) Also, because the British definition is in fact a quasi vet, some courts have interpreted it that way from time to time and racetrackers tend to be a bit paranoid about liability issues. Therefore nobody with any brain cells will ever call themself that on a racetrack.

 

The term "Plater" is used for running horse shoers.(Thoroughbred and Quarter Horse) Harness race shoers don't call themselves anything other than "Blacksmiths" or "Horse Shoers".

Hope this helps ;) B)

George

[Steve McCarthy]

In times past, everyone "needed" a blacksmith. The blacksmith shoed horses, made and fixed tools, hardware, gates, utensels and so on. In modern times there is not an actual "need" for these things to be made by a blacksmith, they can all be bought. People have things made by a blacksmith because they "want" them hand made. On the other hand, there is still much "need" for animals to be shod. So the one trade has become divided into two specialties, blacksmith and farrier.

Thats the way I see it anyhow.

[Frank Turley]

As my dear old dad used to say, "Let's have a little less noise and more confusion." I liked George Geist's response. He is a professional shoer of horses and has been in the fire.

 

I worked with a knowledgeable horseshoer in the 1960's, and he claimed that in the old days in the States, in large cities where there was specialization, the 'carriage horseshoers' would only shoe light legged horses. There were other shops where they only shod "the bulls," apparently meaning draft horses and oxen. He claimed that the two types of shoers had their own preferred saloons that they frequented, meaning that they wouldn't drink together. Try to explain that to the everyday public!

 

As George pointed out, the American Farriers' Association promoted the word 'farrier' in the U.S. Likewise, the Artist Blacksmiths Association of North America promoted the work 'artist.' I have a pamphlet about the renowned Samuel Yellin, and it says the following.

  "Blacksmith" rather than "artist" was how Samuel Yellin chose to refer to himself; nonetheless, he was a complex man and a recognized genius.

 

There was even a dichotomy in the early formation of ABANA in the 1070's where some said that ornamental smiths were not 'real blacksmiths,' only those who made tools and did farm ironwork were the real thing. Oh brother!

 

Then there's the old standby, "Don't you shoe horses?"

"Yeah, shoo! shoo!"

 

I probably haven't answered the original question.

[george m.]

Similarly, I tell folk who ask if I shoe horses is that all I know about horses is that one end kicks and the other end bites.

[beammeupscotty]

Not to put too fine a point on it, ... they were actually "shod".

 

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Thought he was a "plater".

 

Haven't heard that term in a "coons age".  :P

 

You are aware that term does not refer to a raccoon.

[onetreeforge]

Where I come from they use to say the farrier is a failed black smith

[Gergely]

As far as we are at the words:

 

The word farrier / ferrier occurs first time in the late Middle English around 1374-1425. It is borrowed from Old or Middle French, where it is originated from Latin ferrarius, meaning 'smith'. Its root is ferrum 'iron'.

 

So from the perspective of historical linguistics farrier means the same as blacksmith.  :D

 

Greetings

 

Gergely

 

PS. In Hungary nowadays everybody seems to think the blacksmith is who makes those cheap "ornamental" welded up fences.

[Glenn]

Merriam-webster dictionary

Definition of COON'S AGE : a long while <haven't seen him in a coon's age> First Known Use of COON'S AGE 1843

 

Another source

A COON'S AGE - Meaning 'a very long time,' a coon's age is an Americanism recorded in 1843 and probably related to the old English expression 'in a crow's age,' meaning the same. The American term is an improvement, if only because the raccoon usually lives longer than the crow."

[ThomasPowers]

For an interesting stroll through the various types of smiths recognized in Renaissance times may I commend to your attention the hausbuecher von Nurenberg http://www.nuernberger-hausbuecher.de/ go to the english subject terms and you will find that a large number of smithing crafts were considered to be *separate* and not cojoined as we tend to think of them.

I was greatly impressed when I visited Marksburg castle and was looking at the smithy built inside the wall when the guide explained it was for basic repairs and castle work. The lord would go to a city and specialty smiths for his swords and armour. (Most likely Nurenberg...)

[Twgore]

Historically, a good rule of thumb is that the level of specialization of any trade related directly to its setting.  More urban areas with a greater supply of workers required trades to specialize.  Rural areas had a smaller supply of skilled labor, therefore the skilled workers who were there had to generalize and broaden their offerings to make money.  An ironworker in a city might just shoe horses, or just make nails, or just make a certain type of tool.  Lots of consumers meant shops had to pick an area and excel at it to secure that end of the market.  Meanwhile, in the country blacksmith shops consumers had fewer options for skilled labor, and a country smith needed to be able to address a broad range of demands to make a living,  Thus, the typical rural American smith had to be able to do a little of everything, shoeing horses, repairing tools, fixing farm equipment, maybe even working with wheels and wagons.  Likewise in the woodworking trades the city woodworkers might be divided into joiners, framers, cabinetmakers, etc.  who specialized in one aspect.  "Country Carpenters" did a little of everything to make a living

[George Geist]

As my dear old dad used to say, "Let's have a little less noise and more confusion." I liked George Geist's response. He is a professional shoer of horses and has been in the fire.

 

I worked with a knowledgeable horseshoer in the 1960's, and he claimed that in the old days in the States, in large cities where there was specialization, the 'carriage horseshoers' would only shoe light legged horses. There were other shops where they only shod "the bulls," apparently meaning draft horses and oxen. He claimed that the two types of shoers had their own preferred saloons that they frequented, meaning that they wouldn't drink together. Try to explain that to the everyday public!

 

As George pointed out, the American Farriers' Association promoted the word 'farrier' in the U.S. Likewise, the Artist Blacksmiths Association of North America promoted the work 'artist.' I have a pamphlet about the renowned Samuel Yellin, and it says the following.

  "Blacksmith" rather than "artist" was how Samuel Yellin chose to refer to himself; nonetheless, he was a complex man and a recognized genius.

 

There was even a dichotomy in the early formation of ABANA in the 1070's where some said that ornamental smiths were not 'real blacksmiths,' only those who made tools and did farm ironwork were the real thing. Oh brother!

 

Then there's the old standby, "Don't you shoe horses?"

"Yeah, shoo! shoo!"

 

I probably haven't answered the original question.

That's interesting. To further fragment things racetrack guys in the old days look down their noses at "farm shoers". (now show horse shoers tend to have that attitude transferred to them) and to further complicate it amongst Union internal bickering the Thoroughbred guys and the Harness guys didn't associate too much either.

 

In times past, everyone "needed" a blacksmith. The blacksmith shoed horses, made and fixed tools, hardware, gates, utensels and so on. In modern times there is not an actual "need" for these things to be made by a blacksmith, they can all be bought. People have things made by a blacksmith because they "want" them hand made. On the other hand, there is still much "need" for animals to be shod. So the one trade has become divided into two specialties, blacksmith and farrier.

Thats the way I see it anyhow.

 

This may be slightly off topic but I can remember when the USS New Jersey was brought back to Philadelphia in the early '80s to be taken out of mothballs and re-commissioned for duty in Lebanon and such.

 

The guys in the shipyard were awestruck at the way she was built. I can remember guys saying much of that ship was hand forged by blacksmiths and that the biggest reason the government wasn't interested in building anymore such ships was because we no longer had a workforce that could do such work. They thought the skills necessary were lost.

 

There will always be a need for blacksmiths ;) especially when power is lost or SHTF situations come up B)

George

[SReynolds]

Yes. Exactly.

 

Not sure if any of you harbor a copy of the Rual Blacksmith of PA . It is a rare/very well documented book on blacksmithing from about 1780 to 1930 in the state of PA.

 

It describes blacksmithing the way it was. Can't argue with it as it documents what blacksmiths did right from their ledger. How much they worked for, what they did and what they did not do and jobs they had to do and wish they didn't have to. How many assistants they employed, where they worked, how they obtained steel/iron etc.etc

 

.........of course, now that I mentioned that (rare) book, many of you will now go about informing me that it is everywhere and available for 5.00 or less.

 

I was given a copy of it and from what I see, it is very very very rare and sells for a minimum of 75.00

 

What say you

[GRPaavola]

To throw more fuel on the fire... :huh:

 

I remember reading somewhere that Blacksmith also did Dentistry way back when and Doctors would cut hair... would that make us Dentist and Doctors Stylists?

 

Not trying to be snarky... I am new here and not intrested in making enemies, I am just trying to branch out into new business endeavours. :lol:

[SReynolds]

Ok then...

 

 

There is a master smith who operates a shop for a near by historical village.........

He says a lot of things..........

 

one is that blacksmiths conducted marriages due in part that they forge welded.  

 

right.

 

And another is dentistry.

 

And he comes up with some other real odd stuff.

[ThomasPowers]

Please search out my post on Gretna Green; blacksmiths didn't do marriages. People did their own marriages with the blacksmith as witness---just because they were handy in the first place over the border where self marrying was legal.