Avadon Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I have 6x6" wooden columns/posts that need caps. I really like the idea of making tall, pyramidial post caps of copper. How do I go about doing this? Has anyone done this? Would I have to use something like 1/2plate to make two dies top and bottom and use a hydraulic press to make them? I have 121 to make and buying the cheapy ones i don't even like would be almost $800 Anyone use a press to make something like this? I was thinking of the 20 ton el cheapo central machinery press at harbor freight. Is there a limit to how deep the copper can be pulled? Is that why most of the post caps are pretty shallow? How difficult is it to make something like this? 6"x6" I.D. with a 1" flat brim around it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I think it would cost you more than $800 to polish the scratches out of 121 caps made in a press with homemade dies. My only experience in drawing copper in a die is with a jewelers press, and it was nowhere near that deep. YMMV You might want to purchase *one* to see how it was made. The inside may have some marks to indicate if it is one piece or not. Taller pyramids may have to be TIG welded out of smaller sections, and that gets pricey pretty quick, not to mention the clean up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I second Johns posting, if you have to weld/fabricate the 121 caps you will have well over $800 into them by the time your said and done, Unless the client is willing to pop for the extra cost. Fabricate a couple for a time sample. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Greetings AV, John covered the problems that you will have forming your cap... I have presses and custom forming machines and I have never been able to form such a project... The compression of the material for the square edge would be difficult without welding the edges.. As John said buy one and see how it is made.. If you calculate the cost of material and your time 800 might be cheap.. Good luck on this one... Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted May 28, 2014 Author Share Posted May 28, 2014 Wow I didn't think it would be that difficult. How do you think they fabricate these things? I have held them and they are indeed one piece. Do they heat them/anneal them and then throw them into a press? Thats what I was wondering about, if they can be drawn that deeply without having to weld/braze a seam, something that's very time consuming to do well. I'm not too concerned with having them super polished like that. I even thought of hammering them over a form, but I'm guessing that will seriously take forever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 When you are talking about die work the first piece often costs in the thousands to tens of thousands and the second + piece is cost of materials + a few pennies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted May 28, 2014 Author Share Posted May 28, 2014 When you are talking about die work the first piece often costs in the thousands to tens of thousands and the second + piece is cost of materials + a few pennies. Would a die made of 1/2" plate hold up to forming copper around it? It wouldn't have to be two solids would it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I don't know, I've priced die work but never was able to afford any. I will say that 1/2" is probably way too thick for this sort of thing. I wonder about pressing the pyramid and folding the sides and tig welding the corners of the sides to avoid having to deal with the excess material. Definitely not a cheap job. If the posts were already pyramid topped, roofing copper might do the job and fold the excess of the corners over and drill a hole through them to nail it to the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 if you have blanks laser cut with the corners notched and set in silver steel into the female die, the copper will slide over this to bend the 4 sides down , do it neat enough and it may be ok with the corners meeting without silver solder or brazing or tig welding it meaning less clean up. pressing the pyramid should not be too hard but it does get harder the bigger it gets and the taller, I do some steel post caps out od 2 to 6mm plate in a tool I made, made the top tool male by welding 4 triangles together, then adding more bits on the back to stiffen it and then the 1" spigot to fit my press then clamped 4 more triangles to that and welded them together on the outside, used a baseplate with a small hole in the middle to weld the bottom of the female half to and then added more pieces welded round the edges to give it more support I can drop in a square piece of plate from about 1 1/2" square to 6" ( 38 to 152mm ) square and it centers itself in the die. that is just a plain pyramid and at 5" ( 127mm ) they start looking not so good until you tidy them up with a hammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I should have specified that 1/2" was too thick for the copper to be formed. For the die it would probably depend on what type of die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I would imagine that the copper is probbably worked hot. As i would think other wise multiple forming/anealing opperations would be recuired Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted May 28, 2014 Author Share Posted May 28, 2014 So in everyones opinion is something do-able with the 20ton brake press from harbor freight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted May 28, 2014 Author Share Posted May 28, 2014 I would imagine that the copper is probbably worked hot. As i would think other wise multiple forming/anealing opperations would be recuired Yah that's what I was thinking.. taking thin copper .. annealing it and setting it in the die, having it pressed.. then just using snips to cut the edge and make it more or less square. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 No, you either need to have multiple dies, each more sever than the last. Aneiling between forming operations or you need to forge it hot in one die. And I'm not 100% that you wouldnt need two operations. Your looking at some serius stretching and srinking operations, and even pure copper will work harden. I would expect to screw up 3 sets of dies and 30 or 40 blankes befor i got the dies right. Other folks that have more experiance with sheet and forging dies could get it in one set of dies and a dozen blanks, or they would expect to have a dozen dies and 200 blankes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Greetings again AV, I will take the hard line on this ... You are going to make a mess if you try to form these in a hand hydraulic press from HF.. Die position is critical .. I have formed many high relief pieces in a special machine that I designed and I have been there and done that.. It took me many months just to make the special dies and fixtures.. If you think you can just cut out a chunk of 1/2 plate and have at it you are wasting your time.. Like I said been there and done that... Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted May 29, 2014 Author Share Posted May 29, 2014 Sounds like a serious pain in the you know what. Maybe i'll just scout around and see if someone can get me a bulk price on these. This, sheet metal forming of caps, isn't a part of my business, nor do I really want to make it. But I did want to check in case it was easy to do. Doesn't seem to the case. By 1/2" plate... I meant construction a pyramid shape from 1/2" steel plate then construct the other die over the top of it with the same material, then invert the whole thing so it basically looks like a dradel going into an upside down pyramid. The copper would be quite thin, like roofing copper. Not 1/2" copper.. that's crazy. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 We're backsmiths, crazy is in the job description Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 As everyone so far has told you it can't be done cheaply! Maybe so, maybe not, firstly you don't need a male and a female die, you only need a female die. For the male you need a urethane/rubber 'puck' or ball. I'm not so sure about using a jack but with a press it's doable imho. I would make up the female profile using 3mm plate(1/8")then set it upside down and place a section of pipe over it, now fill with lead, the lead does the same as pitch in reprosse. Now rub the inside of the mold with wax crayon. Now press a sheet of thin cardboard into the mold this will give you the aprox shape of the blank required. The 'plastic' 'puck' that you require needs to be 'squish able' (in a press) too firm to do by hand the closest that I can describe is like a 'kong' as in indestructible dog chewer. I have previously used what seemed like a really firm rubber ball to press shapes into copper using lasercut plate as a female die. Here I can go to the guys that make die-sets and buy bits of 'the right material' but I'm not sure if you have access to it so I've done my best to describe the process. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Avadon: Commercially they ay be pressed from sheet or extruded but either way it isn't slow, punch press speed or bust. A 20t. hydraulic press won't work, for explanations see my posts about working copper, brass and bronze alloys. It works hardens abruptly about the third push. You need a stamping press and correctly made polished tooling then it's easy peasy. If you're making your own tooling you'll need to calculate relief and the radii on the corners and point. It will need a positive stop, can't have the blank stopping the press either, sure the tool will stop bottomed but it can't bottom the press at power or . . . B-A-D things happen. The vertical sides are no issue with proper tooling, heck I'll bet you could even get it to roll the bead in the press. Automatic polishing machines will be an issue unless you LIKE standing in front of a buffer getting coated. You WILL turn bluish green before dinner time. I know, been there, done that, I was Dad's polisher when I was a kid and have been stained many different colors/shades. Unless you already have the equipment you'll be WAY farther ahead buying commercial caps or welding them up. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted May 30, 2014 Author Share Posted May 30, 2014 Avadon: Commercially they ay be pressed from sheet or extruded but either way it isn't slow, punch press speed or bust. A 20t. hydraulic press won't work, for explanations see my posts about working copper, brass and bronze alloys. It works hardens abruptly about the third push. You need a stamping press and correctly made polished tooling then it's easy peasy. If you're making your own tooling you'll need to calculate relief and the radii on the corners and point. It will need a positive stop, can't have the blank stopping the press either, sure the tool will stop bottomed but it can't bottom the press at power or . . . B-A-D things happen. The vertical sides are no issue with proper tooling, heck I'll bet you could even get it to roll the bead in the press. Automatic polishing machines will be an issue unless you LIKE standing in front of a buffer getting coated. You WILL turn bluish green before dinner time. I know, been there, done that, I was Dad's polisher when I was a kid and have been stained many different colors/shades. Unless you already have the equipment you'll be WAY farther ahead buying commercial caps or welding them up. Frosty The Lucky. Thank you for the description. Yes it does seem quite lengthy of a process with numerous challenges in it. I wish it was easier to do. Maybe making them out of wood and just painting them copper will be easier lol I've definitely done the buffing and for me it was always the little hairs that were all over you. For that reason I switched to stitched wheels, though they are harder and not as delicate. Some of these copper caps are 8$ for the cheap ones up to 22$ for the more expensive ones. Yikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 As everyone so far has told you it can't be done cheaply! Maybe so, maybe not, firstly you don't need a male and a female die, you only need a female die. For the male you need a urethane/rubber 'puck' or ball. I'm not so sure about using a jack but with a press it's doable imho. I would make up the female profile using 3mm plate(1/8")then set it upside down and place a section of pipe over it, now fill with lead, the lead does the same as pitch in reprosse. Now rub the inside of the mold with wax crayon. Now press a sheet of thin cardboard into the mold this will give you the aprox shape of the blank required. The 'plastic' 'puck' that you require needs to be 'squish able' (in a press) too firm to do by hand the closest that I can describe is like a 'kong' as in indestructible dog chewer. I have previously used what seemed like a really firm rubber ball to press shapes into copper using lasercut plate as a female die. Here I can go to the guys that make die-sets and buy bits of 'the right material' but I'm not sure if you have access to it so I've done my best to describe the process. Ian This is the method I would use and is really the only economical method for a small shop or small run of parts. My 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted May 31, 2014 Author Share Posted May 31, 2014 If I were to try this can anyone show me pics of the machinery/equipment I'd need and maybe it being done on a piece of thin copper or similar material? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Also, note that the material is rather expensive, and high on the theiving list. What ever rought you go, secure the caps well. Simply installing them snug isnt going to fly. Some methhead will steel them, and get $.5 for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted May 31, 2014 Author Share Posted May 31, 2014 Also, note that the material is rather expensive, and high on the theiving list. What ever rought you go, secure the caps well. Simply installing them snug isnt going to fly. Some methhead will steel them, and get $.5 for them I was thinking about that.. If I bought them all they cost about $2500 with the caps I like from this one distributor. At 22$ a piece (i'm hoping I could potentially get a discount for volume if I went with this guy) that would be such a tempation for anyone. They unscrew just a few in the night and make 100$ just like that. They can just resell them, no need to even get scrap prices for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 They aren't that brite. They will sell them for scrap. Copper nails and adhesive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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