How Necessary is a Vise?

[Ridgewayforge]

Greetings,

 

I own a 4" Iron City Post Vise, lacking only the spring and mounting bracket. I've used it for a while, and I find it fairly useful. The screw and jaws are both square and tight. It is a very good vise.

 

However, I was curious how necessary is this tool? I am faced with a choice: I have to sell some of my tools in order to buy coal for my forge. Given my circumstances, this is the necessary route. So, I am debating selling my post vise. I never do any upsetting on my vise, only bending and twisting. In your opinion, is a post vise necessary, or could I get by on just a bench vise?

 

Thanks,

Ridgewayforge

[SpankySmith]

I am using a bench vise and I asked my instructor a similar question recently... he said he has several post vises "back in the shed" but he basically just uses a bench vise day to day.  I haven't run across anything YET needing more heavy duty action, but take that with a whole bag of salt as I'm brand new at this.  Others will chime in, I'm sure. 

[JME1149]

Here are a few of my random thoughts about your question. Personally, I wouldn't get rid of the post vise. Without the spring or mounting bracket, I wouldn't think you'd get much from selling it, and once it's gone what are you going to do? A bench vise would be fine for most of the work you're going to be doing as long as you don't catch the bench on fire from the slag/punchouts/cutoffs.

 

Could you get the cash for coal from other sources, such as lawn mowing for neighbors or other menial labor tasks? Looking at the photos in your blog, would home made charcoal be an option? Is there a local blacksmith or guild than can help you out with the fuel?

 

Also keep an eye on craigslist or other similar sites, sometimes people are giving away coal from basement cleanouts. Good luck with the search.

[Ridgewayforge]

Charcoal is an option that I might pursue, So I have been thinking about how to do it without building a retort burner. I will be spending much of my time working over the summer, trying to pay off some money I borrowed from my parents. So, really I am limited to what I have on hand. I know generally how to work a hole in the ground charcoal retort, but some of the complexities I need to work out. My first batch of coal I got from Craigslist, free Anthracite from someone's basement. Not the cleanest, but it was hot.

[John McPherson]

I would sell blood before I sold my post vise.

[ThomasPowers]

Not knowing how *you* work or what *you* plan to do  it's hard to address *your* situation.  For me this would be like selling your running shoes to pay for a marathon entry.

 

I had 3 students working last night and we never had forge or anvil contention but we did have vise contention!  I hardly ever upset in a postvise but I do do quite a bit of hammering on it bending pieces or truing up pieces---last night it was used to straighten twisted stock, align the eye on the end of a tripod leg, bend right angles in sliding tent pole jam hook, twisting,  close up the end of a piece doubled back on itself, hold 3/8" stock while I was hammering it into a tight spiral, hold stock while wire brushing.  So about 1/2 the jobs had impact involved and a cheap bench vise like HF sells probably would not have lasted the night!  

 

Now if you have access to a large old chipping vise it might make a reasonable substitution but be a lot heavier to travel with!

 

I wonder you have not made a spring for your vise as that can be done even cold!  (though it helps to have a post vise to do it...)  It usually takes me under an hour to do a spring an mounting bracket using a modified columbian version: Ubolt, un-equal flanged angle iron, piece of strap for the spring.  I source all of this at the scrapyard so about US$1 and getting un plated U bolts I can forge them to fit the vise leg---being careful not to mess up the screw threads.  It's the sort of stuff I keep my eyes open for so I have it to hand when I need it.

 

How hard is it to replace your vise?  If two years later you find you really need one and they are only 3 times what you sold it for I think you would not be happy!

 

Funny thing  the vise we were using last night is also a 4" Iron City!  (and I showed the fellow making a jam hook that the person who made the one he was copying owned a 4.5" vise as one of the measurements with right angle bends at both ends was 4.5" so the maker could just heat the stock, put it in the vise and hammer the right angle bends in one go---good production design!

[Dan C]

Personally I won't sell any useful tool unless I come up with a replacement.  Definitely not my vise. 

 

You don't need a retort to make charcoal, just a 55 gallon drum with a lid as demonstrated here.  I don't have a fan for mine, I used my welder to blow triangular holes at the very bottom all the way around.  When I want to smother the fire I use a garden hoe to block the bottom holes w/ dirt and put the lid on it

 

[Gromgor]

in a pinch, don't even make charcoal. Just throw some chopped up wood into your forge and go. It might not get up to welding heat, but you can forge with it. You might go through twice as much wood to do the same job, but wood is basically free. Only cost is a borrowed chainsaw and some time (and labor).

 

Iron doesn't care HOW it gets hot, it just wants to be hot. 

 

Before there was charcoal, there was just plain old wood and it worked well enough to get civilization to the point of charcoal.

[turbo7]

chopped wood or if you want charcoal, get a log or the wood you can get, dig a trench in the garden, wood in trench, get it burning good, then cover it back over with the dirt, the better you seal it the better it will be, leave a few days(?) there's your charcoal

[Dan C]

For extra cash I also do occasional automotive and welding work, just offer whatever skills you have.  I'm also not above going to garage sales or finding things my neighbors put out on the curb for the garbage and reselling things on craigslist.  Last month I made $300 just from things other people were throwing away.  I couldn't make a living doing it, but it helps.

[ThomasPowers]

It's a good point:  you are talking about selling something off that's permanent to buy something that is transitory.  In general those are bad deals; much better to sell of transitory stuff and buy permanent stuff!

 

Or in other words:  50 years from now your grand kids can be using that postvise but any coal you buy will probably be gone before the end of the year.

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Ridge,

 

I would give that a second thought.. Myself like John I would sell my blood first..  I think the problem Is you do not know the full benefits of a post vise.  Watch other smiths and how the use theirs.  So many benefits you can explore. 

 

Forge on and make beautiful things

Jim

[dognose]

I would only sell my post vise if a nicer one that I already have came my way. I'd say just wait until you can afford the fuel. Practice your coldwork.

[Ridgewayforge]

This is a lot of sound advice, especially that about selling something permanent to buy something transitory. This makes a whole lot of sense. I suppose I will have a go at charcoal and wood before selling anything. Thanks for the advice, I am very much enlightened now on the true worth of a post vise!

[Dan C]

In the meantime I would forge a bracket and spring for your vise. If you get a better one and decide to sell it you'll get a better price. Missing parts or a bent leg are the two main things I'd use to negotiate a lower price.

[Dan C]

Thinking more about this, outside of blacksmithing I use my vise more than any other smith tools for cutting wood, welding, grinding etc.  Next would be my forge which doubles as a welding table.  None of the modern vises are going to hold up to the abuse that one of these post vises will.  If I was really, really desperate and I had to begin selling tools (think family member dying, lost job and dog died) the vise would be the last thing to go.  I'd get a bigger bang for the buck by selling my anvil, which would be very sad, but it'd be easier to come up with a large chunk of steel as a replacement which I could still work with. 

 

Sorry to keep harping on this as you've made the decision to keep it but there it is.

[Ridgewayforge]

Dan, you bring up a huge point:

If anything, there might be a pair of tongs or something like that I could try and sell before anything else. But, you're right. A vise is a technically advanced and not easily duplicated machine. An anvil is big ole rock. Tongs are just hinged bars.

I'll be keeping my vise, thanks for talking me out of a potentially horrible decision!

[ThomasPowers]

I used to live in the blacksmiths' happy hunting grounds---central OH and I finally put a limit on how many post vises I would own at one time and then would trade up whenever i bought another one that was better or pass it on if the rest were better. my limit was 10.

 

Now in my shop I have 2 post vises, a big and a 4" one, mounted on 2 separate work benches (4) + a big one attached to a utility pole supporting the shop roof, a portable vise for Demo's a smaller *old* vise for historical demos (evaluated as being pre 1800) (6)   One on long term loan at my church where I teach smithing on a regular basis (7)  and I still plan to mount a large vise in a gazinta in the middle of the floor of the shop for a removable vise with 360 degree access. (8)  leaving only a couple for future use...

[Dan C]

I've also made money by going thru the house & attic looking for things that I never use and then listing them on craigslist.  I don't sell things via garage sales as the margin's too low.

[neg]

I would much rather go without forging for a little while until I got the money for coal than to sell a great tool that I'd need again in the future and may not be able to find...

[VaughnT]

Craigslist can be a valuable friend when it comes to getting rid of stuff.  Folks are always looking for little things that you think are crap, but that they need.

 

Also consider making small things to sell.  A big nail or railroad spike can be turned into a wall hook with about five minutes worth of work.  Take some nice photos of them and post them on CL.  As much as you enjoy forging, make the forge earn its keep.  Or, at least, try to.

 

Fuel?  Chopped wood is great stuff.  I see smiths in thirdworld countries using tiny little fires to heat their stuff, and a lot of them are just using wood.

[Mike Fleming]

Never sell tools....They will make you money..... I use my post vice and my bench vise to do large twists with a torch...I can lock in both ends at the same time... My bench vise is mounted on a heavy, home made steel cart so I can move it to where I need it..

[Judson Yaggy]

A post vise is #5 after forge, anvil, hammer, tong. To think of it another way, the vise is the premier tool for secondary operations (anything including and beyond hitting and squishing).  Clamping, filing, twisting, punching, bending, upsetting, welding, shearing, bottle opener, all can be done with the vise. 

[Frank Turley]

Prior to the screw box vise which evolved in Europe (?) in maybe the 14th century, work was wedged in place. This was perhaps world wide. The Japanese have a sort of "work horse," a plank with a metal wicket hammered into its top. The workpiece is placed into the wicket and wedged to hold it. That wouldn't work on hot metal though.

 

I'm a vise aficionado. I love my leg vises.

[Joel OF]

I'd never get rid of a vise. Having multiple vises is a real time saver - if a project requires a couple different jigs you can lock both jigs up & jump between them rather than putting down your hot steel, taking out the jig, putting the new jig in...
I have 3 vises as they're essential to the way I work/think. I use 1 leg vise right by the fire for jigs & twisting, 1 leg vise left empty for straightening & cutting, then a lower down engineer's vise for holding jigs that require bigger steels that are awkward to handle at leg vise height.