Why weld on reins?

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Yes, chichi, you are correct.
Dan P, I'm not sure what video you are referring to, maybe when I'm forging copper? If you're referring to the taper video that has no sound, you might want to watch it again. I'm going real slow to show how and why, and I did it in bright light so you could see the metal better. The metal was actually never black. If you had the " experience" you say you have, you would have noticed that. You seem to be a bit hostile with your comments, and this is not the first time I've noticed that, and not just towards me. Why not contribute, instead?

[Dan P.]

I just say what I see, Brian.

 

 

I am honestly curious about these welds that can be done in w/i or pure iron that can't be done in m/s. If possible, photos would be enlightening.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

I can't help you out there Dan P. I've never had any problems welding any of the above. Forge welding has been a part of my job since I started. That's why I brought up these last two topics. There seems to be a lot of confusion in the blacksmithing associations here in America especially when it comes to forge welding.

[JNewman]

When I first got some pure iron, experimenting I forged the end of a piece of 3/8" round  down to about 1/32" thick allowing it to fan out over an inch wide.  I then folded the 1/32 back on itself once and welded it together and then drew it out again to 1/32".  There was no sign of the weld.  To me this would be a very difficult weld in steel because the material was so thin but it was easy in the pure iron. 

 

i have a retired industrial blacksmith in his late 80s who drops by my shop regularly.  He started his apprenticeship at 15 and retired at 70 but still demos at a local conservation area.  He has mentioned a number of times  how much easier wrought iron welds.  Back in the day, the shop he worked in had 30-40 smiths and used to go through a 45gallon drum of welding flux every few months.  They used to use iron for chain and links to fasten chain to hooks etc.   I tend to believe him. especially when it coincides with my experience.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

You're absolutely correct, JNewman, really small stuff is more difficult with A36. Spring and higher carbon steels weld very easily also, but something about A36 makes it tougher when it's really small.

You shouldn't have mentioned the use of flux. Someone's going to have to say something about that.LOL:)

[JNewman]

 

 

If one does an "apprenticeship" in anything it just means training. The formal hoo-ey that had in Europe, the guilds, the "Wanderjahr" or "Tour de France" they did not have here. To be a "journeyman" in this country was to follow the work, not some kind of ritual observation.

 

 

I know and have known  guys who completed apprenticeships in England around 50-60 years ago (Blacksmith, Ironworker and multiple Patternmakers).  They essentially had a contract of sorts where they were locked into employment for their apprenticeship and there was on the job training as well as trade school training.  While there was not the "formal hoo-ey"  at least 2 of these people told me when they finished their apprenticeship they were told by the employer that they had to go find another job.  They were told they would be welcome back in a few years but that they had to leave because they were done their apprenticeships and were now Journeymen.

[doc]

I know and have known  guys who completed apprenticeships in England around 50-60 years ago (Blacksmith, Ironworker and multiple Patternmakers).  They essentially had a contract of sorts where they were locked into employment for their apprenticeship and there was on the job training as well as trade school training.  While there was not the "formal hoo-ey"  at least 2 of these people told me when they finished their apprenticeship they were told by the employer that they had to go find another job.  They were told they would be welcome back in a few years but that they had to leave because they were done their apprenticeships and were now Journeymen.

 

 Absolutely correct  JNewman. Have read this more than once over on Practical Machinist site from many machinists' about their apprenticeships in England.

[ThomasPowers]

I try to remember this poem when we get to these junctures: from _In the Neolithic Age_ by R. Kipling:

 

Here's my wisdom for your use, as I learned it when the moose
And the reindeer roamed where Paris roars to-night:—
"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
"And—every—single—one—of—them—is—right!"

 

[Steve Sells]

My electrical union still has a clause of 5 years work being reauired after finishing the 5 year indentured apprenticeship, to aid in repaiyment of the training recieved.   If one leaves the hall before the end of the 5 years work as a journeymen, you must repay the costs of your training, pro-rated of course.   Also since jourmeymen labor costs more than the apprenticeship wages, many do find they need to travel to have regular work.

[basher]

I am confused at the basic premise of this whole thread.

 The answer is obvious you weld on reins because it saves time and effort, at least it would for me if I did not have a power hammer.

 and the method of welding or drawing down had no effect on final dimension or springiness...

 

 I was taught and agree totally with the idea that you will :-

 

draw down material,

 

or jump up material from smaller stock ,

 

or weld (read forge weld or whatever you like) material of different sizes together  to achieve your result.

 

 You will if you have any sense chose the method that is easiest to you.

 

 this will depend on your skill and tooling.

 

 I have a power hammer so I draw them out, If I did not I would  weld them on (by whatever method ).

 

 I find this confusing

 Quote Brian braziel:-

"it's much easier to draw a small section of 3/4" than an equal volume of 3/8""

 could you please explain this as it makes no sense to me, if you are being literal and saying that you can draw 3/4 in stock down to less than 3/8 quicker than you can 3/8 to less than 3/8 ?????

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Let's see if I can explain this.
Say you are going to draw out a rein with nice spring to it, and not just a "dead" stiff bar, and you want a 12 inch rein plus your jaw and start of your stronger taper start of your rein. You only need 2 1/2 inches of 3/4 round to make a 10 inch round rod that is 3/8 in diameter, but since your making a gradual taper, you don't need quite that much material. You probably only need 2 inches to make the springy rein with 3/8 being the max at the start of this taper which you will turn to oval in the end. You will need 8 inches of 3/8" round to start with to do it with the welded on rein. It is easier and faster to forge the 3/4 stock than the 3/8 because of the surface area contact with the atmospheric conditions and the contact with your anvil and anvil. The heat loss will be greater with the longer thinner piece than with the shorter thicker piece. I did a thread a long time ago on this very thing. I titled it "starting with something farther than you want to end up with". I don't know if the pics are still there. It may not sound right, but I learned a long time ago not to trust what I thought or assumed when it comes to moving steel.

You should try it out, no matter what techniques you use or hammer(hand or power hammer).

Oh,I forgot,I wouldn't need to scarf and weld, also.

[basher]

here is the thing, I am not bothered by the cooling characteristics of steel because I get it hot again and work it hot.

 A heat for me is bright orange to dull orange and then back into the forge.

  Regarding spring which is an aspect of material dimension (assuming you are not stressing the material beyond its elastic limit) what differences does the method of making have on the springiness of the tongs?

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Nothing as long as it's a forged spring. We're just talking about efficiency of forging now. The end result, I assume, was established earlier on.

[Dogsoldat]

How much of drawing out reigns is dependant on reign length?  For my propane  forge I find that 16" reigns keep me out of the dragons breath about right.  And though I have a door out the back it running longer stuff though makes for a fairly significant heat loss.  Therefore I personally find it more fuel efficient and easier with my setup up to arc weld the reigns onto the bits.  I'm sure if I had a coal source that was affordable things could be done a little different.  It's been an interesting thread so far.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Rein length is a consideration and/or preference for the job at hand, Dogsoldat. An "air curtain" can also help avoid the "dragons breath" when using a gas forge.

[Daniel Lea (AKA 99pppo)]

A good friend of mine is currently studdying in Hereford and it appears welding on reins is mainly taught there to incorporante fire welding into tong making so the students can practice fire welding without just waisting stock material but actually making something usefull out of it. Before I learned your method I made at least two tongs with welded on reins and they service me very well until present day, but I much prefer a structurally well built up and springy pair of tongs using mainly the technique you taught me. I assume that on other blacksmithing schools and in the associations they also teach welding on reins for the same reason and never get taught how to draw them out or the benefits that come with drawn out reins. And they just keep teaching it to others and that´s why it spread so much. Partly also because the never really learn how to effectively move metal and could never imagine to forge a pair of tongs by hand from 7/8" 4140 as we have done already...

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Exactly, Daniel, but I should have waited for someone else to respond.

[Dan P.]

A good friend of mine is currently studdying in Hereford and it appears welding on reins is mainly taught there to incorporante fire welding into tong making so the students can practice fire welding without just waisting stock material but actually making something usefull out of it. 

 

I studied at Hereford, and they teach that as a method of making tongs, along with other methods, such as forging out the reins, and cutting the reins out of bar. Why don't you ask your friend to ask one of the instructors why they teach it? 

[basher]

and I went to Hereford and was only taught the drawing out method so the Dogma must have been off that day.

 

 I am fairly certain that the large number of smiths going through hereford are not responsible for the many forge welded tongs that I own that have been made over the last 100 to 150 years.

 

 so there must be some other school to blame for them.

 

This whole bandy about structurally well built and springy tongs ? what the ....XXXX has that got to do with construction method?

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Anyone can construct tongs in many ways and how ever they like them. I only question that it is being taught for reasons other than using different metals or ease of handling. To actually say it is faster and easier would be a personal matter for any given individual. Most the smiths that I've heard that it is faster and easier aren't experienced enough to make that judgement. It may be faster and easier for them at this moment in their experience. It is taught by some here in America that that is the reason for welding them, and most beginners, of course, believe what they are told. I personally have no problem with either method, but I can definitely make them faster just drawing them out.

[Dan P.]

So, in your opinion, Brian, why were tongs so very frequently made with a welded rein historically? 

I don't think it can have been lack of experience to make the judgement.

I am not saying that convention or tradition didn't play a part, but if you think anybody was doing more work just to observe a tradition, or that smiths back then were not familiar enough with their techniques and materials to be able to judge, I think you are straight wrong.

 

I think you could do with taking a step back and ask yourself if you are not maybe afflicted with a dogma of your own invention, i.e. that straight forging is always best. Is it?

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Dan P, the reasons for welding were mentioned by others in this thread, I just asked the question and responded to answers. I'm just trying to have a conversation about forging. In my opinion, or from my observations, the tongs I've seen were welded on for all the reasons that have been stated already: economy of material, different properties of metals, ease of handling in the case of large and/or long tongs, and of course the opinion that it is faster and easier. I just question the use of using mild steel to weld to another piece of mild steel for small tongs and the assertion that it is faster and easier to do it, and welding a 3/8 hot rolled round rod and leaving it at that.
I don't understand your conversations. They seem to get personal with you, and you make accusations. I'm just trying to talk about how and why we do what we do.

[Steve Sells]

Since this thread is still hotter than it needs to be.   I am closing this thread for at least a while, to allow people to settle down and get the focus back to smithing, not personalities.

[Steve Sells]

This was shut down for 2 days because some of the comments went way across the line,  those personal attacks have been hiddden.  Many of you posting here have my respect, but enough is enough.  Please remember. the general rules here are: No Fussing, No Cussing and treat each other with respect.

 

Steve

[Glenn]

This thread has been shut down for 2 days due to it becoming overheated. There were some comments that could have been read as personal attacks. Please remember the general rules are No Fussing, No Cussing, No personal attacks, and please stay away form discussing religion and politics. Discuss the topic but do not let it get personal in nature. That way everyone can learn and still remain friends.