Admanfrd Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 I cant figure out why such an importantly hard hitting area is located on the heel where there is the least amount of support. does anyone know why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 By the time the classic London pattern had taken its shape in America as a thin long anvil most shops had meconized and would use power hammers for most heavy forging. The anvil was more suted for bending than heavy forging Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Early hardies were punched by hand or tilt hammers, mucheasier to do with a thin amount. Also easier to make hardy stems that can be tapped out if they lodge if they don't have to be 6" long. Also if you have to hit something that hard on the hardy it probably should be on the anvil face with a top tool and striker. Remember having a single person in the smithy is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY historically and so traditional tools were designed for the traditional norms and not for our modern times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Dave Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Mechanically speaking, just looking at the anvils, the hardy hole is cut through the thinnest portion of the anvil. Think about what it would take to make an inch hole through the thickest part of the anvil. Also, practically, if you hardy tool gets stuck, you can tap it out from underneath easily near the heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admanfrd Posted February 8, 2014 Author Share Posted February 8, 2014 ...I see why, but it still seems a bit dumb. Regardless, thanks for the info! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Some heavy English industrial anvils (I think call Mechanics anvils) had two hardy holes, one in the traditional spot and one near the cutting table or in the cutting table. I think a PW of this design has appeared in the last year for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 How is it dumb to create a tool based on the needs of the user and the abilities of the manufacturer? It's dumb to think that the standards of today apply to ages long past. As a hobby smith, there is absolutely nothing I would do on the heel of my anvil that would jeopardize the 1.5" thick piece of steel. If you're wailing away with a 20lb sledge, you either need to create a striking anvil or a swage block because they are the better tool for the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 The London pattern anvil was 3000 years in the making. It took that long to refine the design. For most smiths, the heavy forging isn't done in that area. The anvil has a "sweet" spot, that's where we do most of our work. Why would we need a hole in the best portion of the anvil? When a tool is made its designed for a specific job. That's why you can find double horned, saw makers and countless other anvils designed for specific jobs. The London pattern is more of a "Swiss Army" of the anvil world. It's capable of doing many jobs. The guys who collect and study these things may set us both right. ^_^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 On every anvil made prior to 1800 that I have ever seen, the hardy hole is *just* past the waist of the anvil, was relatively small, and had excellent support. The heel (and horn, if it had one) were pretty short. Remember, these wrought iron anvils were made up from smaller chunks of wrought forge welded together. If you were cutting anything bigger than your pinky finger, you used another tool to cut it. More recent anvils were generally made of better materials, had relatively longer horns and heels, and larger hardy holes. They are also more likely to have the face, horn or heel broken off or severely damaged by some knothead. Again, you probably did not use the hardy as much to hold bottom tools for large work. You would purchase an industrial swage block if you did a lot of heavy team striking and large shapes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foundryman Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Some heavy English industrial anvils (I think call Mechanics anvils) had two hardy holes, one in the traditional spot and one near the cutting table or in the cutting table. I think a PW of this design has appeared in the last year for sale. I believe you're referring to an anvil like the one i currently use, though i think it's called a Soho pattern anvil, at least I've seen it described as such in a vintage sales booklet I came across linked on this website somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Blythin Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 I don't think I'd like using an anvil like that one Foundryman. On both of mine, the 4-6" just back of the step is where I do most of my lighter work (has the smoothest face, with nicest edges)... having a whopping great hole in the middle would be a real annoyance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 The other posters are right. The London pattern was a general work anvil. Heavy industry designed anvils with holes just were they needed them. Anvils like the one above and anvils like chain makers anvils had tool holes heavily supported for constant work. For even heavier work you could get a anvil with slots all across the face were you would key in dies just like a power hammer. No anvil is just right for for all forge work For my ornamental work that requires a great deal of bending I preferr a long thin double horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Keep in mind too that the very heavy work that would damage a thin heeled anvil was usually done on big anvils with proportionally more material in the heel area. From my observations, I think that most broken heels and horns are not due to the presence of the hardy hole location, but rather to faulty welding of anvils constructed by the build up method. I replaced heel on a 180# anvil that was almost completely broken off when I got it. Only the face plate was holding it together and even that was partially cracked. I've seen other examples of faulty welds too. It certainly is possible to break off the heel of a solid steel anvil such as a the later haybudden and trentons, but that still takes an awful big hammer and big swing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I have a large Hay Budden which is over 3" thick at the hardy hole. This is safe for anything that won't damage a standard 1 and 1/8" hardy tool. My smaller anvil (about 90) only has about 1" or so, and it is not safe with even aggressive hand hammering. I would not worry about the less demanding uses, such as cutting, bending with a fork, welding in a round bottom swage, or using a block tool. I would not use a cupping tool to form the rounded end on a hammer. This is above the safe limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Sizing the anvil to the work is important though there is some overlap you can do by using extra care when working a larger piece on a smaller anvil making sure it over the sweet spot and taking care to make no missed strikes. Much easier, faster and less worrisome to throw a big piece up on a big anvil and go to town on it. About a week ago I brought my forge early to cowboy church and one of the things I did was to work a highschool kid through making an extra long marshmallow roaster for the bonfire after the service. We used election sign wire and I showed her how to loosely twist it together and then reheat and stick it in the vise again and tighten the twist up with a pair of tongs. When we got to the end we bent the tines out to form a T and I explained that we were going to heat them up and place them on the anvil face with the handle vertical and then tap them down alongside the anvil. She got a puzzled look so I picked up the example we were working from and showed her how the tines *exactly* fit over the anvil and down the sides. (Cause I hand made it using that anvil...) Couldn't have done it on a larger faced anvil. Would probably have used the vise and bent each tine individually. The offset was also large enough that she could work the tines over the heel---also something you couldn't do with my big Fisher... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 its like complaining because my ford taurus cant pull the trailor to get a load of coal. It does not have a hitch, the light frame could not deal with tounge weight either. But I can turn around or park almost anywhere, seats 4 and gets 25 MPG, not the 15 to 18 that my truck does. No one tool can fit all jobs. Are you aware that very old anvils were basically just a large block of metal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admanfrd Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'm kind of afraid to use a hardy tool of any kind on my 145# arm and hammer hardy. it's so thin... I'm sure it would hold up, but it's scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 OTOH I've use the hardy on my 91# A&H a lot and it's heel is very very thin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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