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Stuff to ponder


Rich Hale

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I guess I really come off bad when I answer the same way so many times when someone asks a question that maybe could for sure be answered once again in a few rather short sentences by myself or any of the others that have put together threrads that have covered the exact same or really similiar questions in the past.

 

Consider our side of this: as mentioned above considering shop time; We gave up shop time and other draws on our life to compile, sort and type that info. And for the knife making lessons that meant our shop time for those lessons were not profitable or necessarily funs shop days. We repeated basics that are no longer needed in our shops. And in  my case I got a friend to come take the pictures we added to perhaps more clearly  illustrate wot we wished to pass along.

 

We gave that time for you to use as you please. And for my part it was a way to put back into this site as a way to try and pay for all the information I have received since it began. And in keeping with the way it has been since then. My thoughts or motivation will not change your rights to ask the same questions any time you wish.

 

And even though I have refered the same folks several times to where the answers that are already in print. They are not  in any way obligated to click into a page link and read the wealth of information they will find. they can ask again here in the forums. and historically someone will answer...As for me i will continue to suggest that they read what is there and offer help if they have a time with any part of the information that I had a hand in.

I hope this does not seem harch and uncaring,,but if someone is offended I think I will get over it.

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The way some people have responded to a link being offered as a reply.   It makes me wonder if they want to know the answer or just a need to post something?   I can understand people looking and not finding things, but to ask a question and then complain when they dont like the answer is just plain bad manners.

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You guys are fine. The kind of people to quit if they thought an answer was short or not what they expected aren't the type to stick to the many hours required to get into these hobbies any way. Honestly speaking, you guys have contributed a lot and its much appreciated. The perceived problems may lie in the forum structure itself...

...There needs to be a frequently asked questions section for knife making. Make it the FIRST knife forum on the list. This section can be labelled Biginners. All easy to answer questions or general new discussion there with links stickied for your write-ups.

Here's the kicker. Another subforum for General Knife Makers only made available to post in once the User has a certain amount of posts. This will keep much of the general knife forum free from the same easy questions in theory.

The problem isn't that you answer questions with "read my write up". Its that people aren't reading it to begin with.

If all of this sounds unlikely I have on other forum trick. Lets start a ask/answer thread. I open it out with a question. The post following it needs to answer the question and is then followed by a question of their own for the next poster. After that it just keeps going. Very helpful forum tool that.

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we have a "New knife maker" thread, we have entire section of knife classes, even suppliers lists;  they are not being read either.  About the post numbers, we have a few people with hundreds of post,  that still have yet to light a fire or use a hammer or anything. 

 

Thank you for trying to make us feel better. It is nice to be noticed for what we have done once in a while.

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Greetings Gents,

 

As you know I am a frequent poster..  I understand your frustration..   I think some of the newbies just do not know how to search a topic...  Some toss out a request for info just to underline what they already have the answer for...  Being whom you are if your response matches what they already know it underlines that they are doing the best possible...  I recently responded to a post that in all appearance was from a new smith with a problem ... After his response back it was clear he was a professional ...  As I said some just post to light a fire so to speak.   Myself I look forward to the information that you have to offer and consider it a pay it forward gift...  Please keep the faith..   We have a wealth of information that we should pass on...  When I started smithing 40 years ago there was not any information available...   I think the newer generation is soiled and somewhat lazy with the  ease of ready information.   That's what I got..

 

Forge on and make beautiful things

Jim

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When I did my first search on the internet there was only one source for blacksmithing information. That site (which no longer exists) was just a list of chronological postings, with no organization as to subject. The threads and posts of the dog had puppies, it rained today and I built a new pair of tongs were interwoven like spaghetti. The next post was placed on the top of the pile to be sorted out by those viewing that site. There was a search engine, if you could call it that, which was some help in point you to a general key word time stamp. You then had to fight your way through the spaghetti both before and after that time stamp to see if the information you were looking for was even there.

 

Let us approach the IForgeIron from the stand point of newbie (or otherwise) who accidentally stumbled upon IForgeIron through a internet search. The reference he found was on topic and the entire discussion was in one place, from the original first question to the last comment. Just like reading a book, each post was like a new page. No puppies, and no weather report, just on topic blacksmithing information. He found he was in a section of the site with other related questions discussed in detail and with answers given. 

 

We suggest people pack a lunch and a cold drink as they may be a while reading the related material. They usually branch out to others areas of interest and loose track of time for hours or even days.

 

The members of IForgeIron have spent many long hours writing what could be called technical papers on specific topics. They have been posted as a reference to better answer the question in detail rather than a quick comment. Those references are topic specific and posted in related sections throughout the site.

 

Blacksmithing is a craft with a 2000 plus year history. Those with the knowledge have been in the craft many years and are experienced craftsmen. We need to encourage them to teach. They cast a long shadow and we need to stand in their shadow to learn. 

 

There are those that say *I do not want to read, I just want the answer* (yes it has happened). Those with shadows, long or otherwise, still provided the reference to the discussion and the answer.

 

We can not make people read, we can not make people build a fire, we can not make people blacksmiths. The drive MUST be an internal drive with each individual. If people are interested, we can assist them and encourage them to grow in the craft. They can quit at any time or they can continue one step at a time. The choice is theirs, not ours.

 

We KNOW there is no upper limit to the quest for knowledge and learning, and we KNOW it is an life long journey. Hopefully others will learn this lesson.

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Rich, and certainly Steve. My interest hasn't turned to knife making, in any serious fasion as of yet (tho David boye's book has been on my shelf for over 25 years). The fact that the information is there (infact the hammer tutorial sent me hunting threw the sight for half a day) is conferting, as I know I'll turn my hand that way. As a parent I learned that we tend to focus on the bad, and forget the good. As my dad put it " one ah .... Negates a bunch of ata boys). There isn't a thread I read that dosnt have at least one other person reading it, including your work in the knife section. I think that despite the ignorant newbie questions, your work is being read and used everyday. You experience and time is apretiate by the majority of us.
Glenn, again thank you and the other moderators for bringing this modern library of information to us.
As Rich, I'm inspired to give back to IFI, I don't have his experience, but I'm learning.

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I guess I really come off bad when I answer the same way so many times when someone asks a question that maybe could for sure be answered once again in a few rather short sentences by myself or any of the others that have put together threrads that have covered the exact same or really similiar questions in the past.


The problem is not with you or your replies, the problem lies with the people who do not follow forum etiquette. As you can see from my post count and my join date I follow the philosophy of only asking a question if i can not find the answer or I have something important to contribute. What I see alot of times are questions that have been answered dozens of times already being asked as if the information from 6 months ago is invalid. Sometimes opinions and techniques change (anybody bothering to normalize a blade magnetic north anymore?) But that usually changes over a few years and not months. Another problem is the race for a higher post count I've seen it many times on forums (not so much here) a newb feels inadaquate until he/she has a post count of several hundred useless posts. Those people don't realize that it should be quality over quantity. But I degress and my whole rambling post really means one thing. Rich and Steve you did a wonderful job with the knife classes and it means alot to us long term lurking newbs.

Thanks for an invaluable resource to everyone on iforgeiron.
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An unfortunate side effect of the Internet is the "Maypo Kid Syndrome", i.e., 'I want my Maypo and I want it now!'...

Prior to the 'net, there were no choices other than reading books, making phone calls and attending classes, meetings, seminars, workshops, etc. to learn any trade or craft unless you were fortunate enough to have a close relative who would educate you. I have an entire library of books that I bought long before I was able to peruse a website for information.

With that said, it's still very convenient to have the opportunity to sit in an easy chair and send questions into cyberspace where true experts and leaders in their respective professions offer responses - so it's somewhat understandable that people do it. Regardless of those few lazy folk who won't do their own research, I believe the majority of us appreciate the job that both moderators and contributors do on a daily basis since it certainly can be a thankless job. Kudoes to all.

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Personally I think a little curmudgeonly grumbling now and then is interesting!  I have been on forums where the interactions did get out of hand at times and that is no fun!  Here on IFI I have kind of felt pretty comfortable most of the time!  I would say that the site is generally pretty well run and extremely informative!  I miss Mark Aspery and Bran Brazeal,  who seem rarely to appear here lately, but I think people are getting some really knowledgable and useful advice here anyway.  I really miss Jake Pogrebinski (I hope I spelled that right) because he had a very unusual passion for forging and it was fun to see his work!  I hope to see him here again one day!  I do truly enjoy this site and I have learned MUCH here... I hope that I have also helped to teach a few things now and then!  I say "Forge On"!

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I think its good that you Rich, and Steve have spent so much time compiling information in the knife section of this site.

 

It is also worth considering the following though, There are hundreds of other members, with collectively tens of thousands of hours of experience in blade work. If the first reply to a thread is 'read the knife making classes' (often within a few mins of the thread being posted) it does not encourage contribution from other experienced members, who may have valuable information to add that is not in the information you have prepared.

 

just a recent example - I posted a blade with pattern welded stainless cladding. Someone commented they did not know you could do this, and the reply was along the lines of 'we covered that in the classes' - end of. no more discussions about p/w stainless. Out of interest I went and read the classes, and very little of what I did, and my techniques was covered there - but... the conversation was pretty well killed by the comment along the lines of 'do your homework'

 

So, s'pose what I am trying to say is perhaps don't take it so personally when questions are asked that you feel you have covered in the past, perhaps sometimes let the conversation run, ideas get thrown around and possibly new ideas tried.

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An unfortunate side effect of the Internet is the "Maypo Kid Syndrome", i.e., 'I want my Maypo and I want it now!'...

 

 

Sadly it seems schools no longer teach kids how to actually learn and find their own information. They are instead taught how to simply regurgitate information they can quickly locate with an internet search and 15 minutes of spare time. Time was when you were taught how to do actual research on a topic, but today all they seem to want is the cliff notes version condensed down into an easy to study format with all the answers to the test questions and no work involved.

 

I see the same thing when I help teach welding at the tech school at night. About 1/2 to 2/3rd the students seem to expect to walk into a 48 hr class with no experience and walk out as pros with all the info at their finger tips. It all sounds so easy... until you actually have to do the actual work.

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Let us not forget the "self appointed expert" see it all the time on the net, some one offers his/her (often wrong) opinion as the truth. Any time you search the net for info you read everything you can find, often fallowing up at the library.
Here, it's not such a problem, more than one way to skin a cat, but if its bad information it's exposed in no uncertain turms.

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Steve, I don't think you killed the thread, it was just an example (and it was just an idle 'didn't know you could do that' comment) but it may have discouraged others from asking questions about it for 'fear' (for want of a better word!) of just being re-directed to a different portion of the site.

 

It really boils down to how much you want the knife making section of IFI to be about a few members directing folks to established threads, or more of a 'general input' throw ideas around environment for learning, with other more experienced bladesmiths chipping in where necessary.  (of course, I understand, its not me who has to moderate it though :) )

 

 

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Nonjic, when I read the forums, almost daily, I try to understand a bit about who is posting and at time perhaps why.  Pretty tough challenge but that is a big part of who I am in life. The big reason for the time i spent her in the past and likely to conitue is to pick up someting i can actually do and add to my skill list. (bag of tricks?)  When someone posts a note about wot they have done or perhaps show a pic with the note I am at times quuite interested. When they add information to that note that enhances the overall I most times can for sure see a lot more in my tired old brain about wot they have done. i am truly blessed with a ability, (mayybe curse?) to read about something and head to the shop for a test run.   Rarely does that work out but with a couple of rereads and lab experiments many times I can come up with something I like. now and then someone posts a thread thatt really gives us information that is just wot we need to hit the shop. San mai is not on my list at this time..however i do not remember reading your post. Times may again change and i will scour the site seeking anything you may have posted.

 

Wot I am saying is if you feel snubbed and have withdrawn the that is how it is. If yoiu will allow one person to control wot you want to do that may be another thing. Your shop, your rules. If you wish to contribute that would be a bonus for folks that use this wonderful resource.

When we staerted the knife chat we said tha4t anyone that wishes coupld post pics of their progress either in the forum or private to us and we wold offer suggestions. We received pics of two knives. Pretty sad but there were still a lot of folks keeping and eye on the lessons and still are.

We were not able to then or now, move folks to do anything they were not comfortable doing. Nor did we expect to.

Back to topic: When I once again type that we have covered it in the lessons. It saves me from typping a realy short recap of something that has been mentioned at length. And I do  know that in the overall short knife making lessons we for sure did not cover much in that at depth lengths that we could have. And as you mentioned San mai is one example. When I know someone that has a large bag of trick in this area has posted a question i never give them wot might by some seem like a brush off. I will share wot I know and likely will learrn in the process.

if anyone shuts down and asks no more from us and stears clear of the lessons..that is their choice. There are those that have changed alot in the products they turn out and the prices they attach to wot they now sell. That was a goal i believe we had and continue.

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I'm amazed at the individual contributions that have been made to this site.  Initially I'm sure I was one of the ones asking many of the same old tired questions until I became more adept at finding the answers that are already here.  Reading thru IFI on similar topics, such as this one opened my eyes to effectively searching the forum.  When on occasions I was told to check xxz section as it'd already been answered I appreciated that response as well, promising myself I'd search harder next time. 

 

Thank you for everyone's time that contributes to this forum. 

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Biggest thing to remember here is....The blank page question... In that I mean those who do will receive more help and attention than those that are simply here to be spoonfed. If I never applied any of what I've learned from these lessons and write ups in my shop my work would not have progressed and the help and tips I'm sure would soon stop. Such has not been the case for me....I applied what I learned here and asked for help when I failed, or wanted to get to that NEXT level. The work that these gents have put into these forums is overwhelming! Kudos to all that input....and also to those to those that use it. Let's not let a few attention seekers ruin any of it for any of us!. 

 

My work owes a lot to this site and the ones who contribute. Thanks again to all of you! 

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Hey, wait a minute. I always thought Rich and Steve could do it all. I mean, where's my smart phone and BMW? What's going on with this site anyway? You mean I actually have to think AND do the work? What's with that? Dang, I may have to find another site that does the work for me because I don't want to think, read or...get dirty.

Great job Steve and Rich on your contributions, as well as all the others who have contributed to help advance us in the mystery we pursue.

That's it...last chance...I want a Mercedes E class.   :)

John

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I used to participate on other forums that weren't blacksmith related.  There were "stickies" arranged to circumvent the most frequent  questions from being asked.  Lots of effort went into what was posted.

 

Every day there was an example of one of those questions being asked anyway. 

 

I think the issue is that some members put together the display and want to curate their exhibit which works directly against the notion of a message board/chat/tech support situation.

 

I quit going to those forums because it was REALLY rare that anything new came to light.  On rare occasions I'd have a question about something specific, and my posts would go unanswered while everyone answered the newbie question for the 4,000th time.

 

It's amazingly contrary that folks join forums to interact with others but often lack courtesy with respect to how they're coming across.  

It's kind of like kids who won't answer their phones when you call but will text illiterate gibberish whenever they need something. The grumpy old man in me wants to say it's just rude.  The businessman in me wants to quit playing phone-tag with people who won't communicate efficiently.  Like lots of stuff in life, the answer is moderation.  

 

I appreciate the knife making stickies and the posted links to previously covered topics.  I try to confine my posts to areas of my knowledge independent of the site in the hopes that I'll add something for all I've gained. It's tedious reading repeated questions and answers from folks who are missing the point of reference material.  

 

Telling everyone to read the stickies reminds me of when I asked a parent how to spell a word.  After a while I knew they'd just say "look it up in the dictionary".  I still relish the memory of my Mom and I looking for "Pterodactyl" in the "T's" of the Webster's dictionary!

 

 

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How can people post, and then get upset when someone disagrees with them. Why do some take it so personal to read conflicting posts?

 

We had a member banned last summer because after being told by a few people about Underwriters Labs and electrical rules,  threatened and verbally abused at least 2 members and staff because he didnt agree with the laws, (his post was taken off line it was so bad)  then he tried to blame everyone else, and even got some of his friends to complain about his ban, tellling others they didnt think his statements were a problem and IFI is out of control.   Then people just starting, get mad when told they should be wearing safety glasses.

 

I make lots of mistakes,  I dont like it when I am called on it either,  but when I do find out I try to admit it and move on.  This place is for learning and growing in the craft.  We can't do that if we don't listen to others views.  I never heard of WD40 being used to prevent scale. That made no sence to me, and violated all I knew about keeping the metal clean, but it turns out I was wrong and a few people are using it regularly and getting good results.  I have since added that information to my book to share it with others now, and I will use it myself.   But I would have never learned that if I remained close minded to conflicting ideas.  Keeping an open mind should be something to ponder for all of us.

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You know I believe that folks have a "given right" to be fools---IFF they are willing to abide by the consequences.  However when I post I will generally over emphasize safety precautions that I may not follow as stringently myself to help some of our younger members to continue smithing until they can get old and tired and grumpy and can yell at the young'uns---"Get off my scrap-pile!".

 

Been at this forum stuff since it was bulliten boards, rec.crafts.metalworking, for example.  Learned to let most stupidity roll of my back like water on a whale.  I do get bothered when folks advise otherfolks to what may be their detriment.

 

I still teach smithing even though I know that *most* of my students won't be doing it 2 years down the road; but that's OK they might take it up again twenty years down the road---or their kids; or they will at least understand the fellow two houses down that's hammering steel on a chunk of forklift tang...

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Rich, you, Steve and Thomas are among my faverite members. I'm sure a large part due to you all being "curmudgeons" as much as your skill, common sence and wisdom.
Not to say that there aren't several others I am more than happy to see their bylines.
Be you grounchy, grumbly, direct, and even rude selves. If others can't take "no your doing it wrong" or don't do it that way you might get hurt" then I'm sorry, but every one can't be right.

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