Gonna get a welder...

[RKM556]

Hey you guys! You have helped me out tremendously in the past and you are all so open and willing to help. I appreciate it greatly.

 

I'm going to invest in a welder. In too many cases now I have really felt the need for one... and I don't have access to one. I have never welded before. I am often using carbon steel and tool steel like most blacksmiths and I know that that may possibly affect which welder I need. So basically I want to know what you guys think: would and arc, MIG or TIG welder fit my purposes best as a beginner welder? 

 

Thank you guys so much! 

 

Ryan

[Charles R. Stevens]

I'm certainly not a welder ( or weldor as some manuals say to delink ate between the machine and the operator). But these are my thoughts ( fully expecting the prows to laugh me out of town). Mig's are by far the easiest to learn to use. Once you have it dialed in just point and shoot. But since you are talking about aloy steels, you have to match the filler to the steel being welded. If you change aloy then you have to change wire. Much easier and eccanomical with a stick or tig to change filler as you are using rod. I have used all three, and between stic and tig I prefer tig, but only because I learned to gas weld first, and holding the arc at a set distance, and feeding in the filler is more natural to me. Econamicaly the stick probbably makes more sence, as you can pick up reversable AC-DC 220 units fairly cheaply then store the rods in an old fridge with a desiccant bag.
I like the hxxxx out of my mig, and it's the go to for most mild steels I grab the stick for heavy stuff, or when the Oklahoma wind is trying to blow away my shield gas, lastly the tig or good old fashion gas torch depending on what I'm working on.
I know all I've done is mudy the waters, and I can hear laughter and some naw shiny of teath from the pro's

[David Gaddis]

A mig machine is by far the best unit for a beginner.  Many will make smart remarks about being a "real" welder would use such-and-such machine or type. 

 

Just get a quality machine instead of one of those el cheapo (HF, etc) types. FOr most small stuff the Lincoln or MIller units are fabulous. I think the Lincoln model is #175. Of course I have all differing types tig-mig-stick in both name brands and large capacity. For most DIY guys at home the smaller unit is good enough. Please use the gas type instead of the flux-wire only. You will thank us later for that.

 

The smaller units are fine with 10 pound wire too where I use very large spools.

CO2 gas is more economical and mixed gas produces a prettier weld...

 

And get a good welding helmet.

 

 

Carry on

[Black Frog]

I'm no welder, and up to last year had been wanting a welder for years.  I had been watching CL and you see lots of welders come up for sale.

I don't have 220v in my garage, but thinking about wiring it at some point.  110v welders can only work so big...

 

After doing lots of reading and homework, I invested in buying new MIG vs used. 

I plan on having this thing for decades so I wanted to be happy and satisfied with my decision.

I went for the Miller 211 which allows you to run either 110v or 220v on the same machine.

Not cheap, but very nice.  I run with the mixed gas and love this machine.

It even makes a hack like me look like I know what I'm doing at times.....

[HWHII]

Black Frog, nice choice on the Miller 211! ;)  Don't settle in on the mixed gas. Its nice to have around but you should take a look at straight CO2. It's alot cheaper and works well. For pretty welds, thin gage tubing, and sheet metal welding 75/25 is the best choice. If you are doing repairs on rusty metal, making jigs, welding heavier material, or welding outside on a breezy day CO2 is the better choice. Your welding supplier might talk you out of buying the CO2. Most do to novices, they want you to buy the more expensive gas. Gases are where they make their most money.

[MLMartin]

For general welding in a ornamental blacksmith shop a MIG welder if by far the most popular type of welder in the USA. You generally need to clean off rust, paint or any other type of coating on steel before MIG welding.

 

 

For welding rusty painted trailers, or industrial junk back together in the yard or field a stick welder is the best choice.

[cavala]

I don't agree with people dogging flux-core, skyscrapers and bridges are built using it. I can lay down just as good of beads with flux core as I can with mig (just more spatter).
That said I mostly run shielding gas but I keep a roll of flux core around when im in a bind. Also a stick welder is very versatile, I keep a wide variety of rods around pluses a lot of machines can be set up for tig.

[Frosty]

Before you buy a welder take a class or two, maybe hook up with a local who can show you how welding works. Migs or in the case of CO2 or 75/25 shielding gas GMAW, CO2 is NOT an inert gas so MIG isn't what it is. I haven't been much in the trade for a number of years but MIGs were known amongst the pros as "the Lawyer's welder".

 

First, NO welder is "point and shoot," none of them. If you don't know how to weld a mig or gmaw can lay pretty beads that aren't welded to anything. This is called "cold lapping," a term developed from folk who think mig is point and shoot.

 

If you're going to be welding many different metals or mixing them "stick" will serve well. If you're going into exotic metals you need TIG.

 

Still, you have to know how to weld or any weld a person will depend on to their possible detriment will get you sued for cause.

 

Probably the very BEST  type welder for the beginner is an oxy acetylene torch. You can learn to gas weld from a book and it's slow enough to give a person an opportunity to see exactly what is going on and the results. Any arc welder with the possible exception of TIG can run a bead right over the joint without penetrating for a cold lap. You CAN cold lap with a tig but you almost have to try.

 

Torch welding will weld virtually anything you need welded including forge welds. Best of all you will have welds just falling apart if you cold lap a joint. How do you avoid cold lapping? Simple, follow the only technique that really counts welding after the prime rule, clean clean clean. The technique? Make a puddle, THEN fill the puddle. With a torch it's much easier to get even penetration on each side of the joint and when you start dripping the filler rod in you can build the bead to the correct size while you watch.

 

Take an extension course at the local college. Learn to weld and as a side bonus a college metal shop class, (industrial arts) will give you access to a pretty complete machine shop and expert help. A number of friends of mine take industrial arts extension classes for the machine shop access alone. It's an unbeatable deal, you get the use of precision machinery, expert help for darned reasonable tuition and materials.

 

Any, at the end of my typically windy post, my advice is learn to weld THEN buy a welder. No, you don't need to become an expert, get certified or such, just get competent so nobody gets hurt and ends up owning your house while you make the payments.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Everything Mac]

I was asking the very same questions just a few months ago. The general feeling is that MIG is much easier to learn on. I spent some time deciding which type to go for and then which brand and model!

In the end I opted for a clarke 151 gas/no gas model. Spent a few hours with my engineer father who showed me the ropes on his murex MIG and away I went. I was getting really good beads with the murex in about 20 minutes. I've only been welding funny shapes with the clarke though but so far so good.

My machine was about £240 so not the cheapest but I've enjoyed using it immensely so far!

All the best
Andy

[Charles R. Stevens]

I'll own that, and a well deserved chastisement Frosty.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I agree with Frosty. I took night courses at my local community college, and learned stick (GMAW), TIG, MIG. Once you get the hang of the different types you will know which one(s) you want to get.

 

I bought all but one of my welders used at machine shop auctions. The Linde (least expensive, but favorite) was $250, and the Miller 250 (most expensive) was $1,000, all came with some accessories IE; bottles,leads, guns,rods,wire, or consumables.

 

My favorite by far is TIG-no splatter, and precise. I have a Linde UCC-305 that I absolutely love, and a Miller 250 or 300, can't remember - it's loaned to a friend at the moment.

 

For production work, or quick welds I like my MIG's - Lincoln SP-100 (the only new welder), Lincoln 250, Miller 200, and Miller MP-65E (650 amp 3 phase)

 

I use my Linde UCC-305 (350 amp) for my stick welding. One nice thing about TIG welders is that they also do stick, and you also have the option of using the foot control for stick as well as TIG. That helps when you want sharper edges since you can back off the heat when you get close.

 

I have run a ton of wire through my SP-100 (120 volt)  both bare, and core. Core for outside when it is windy, and bare for inside where it is calm.  I like tha SP-100 because both the heat, and wire speed are infinite variable switches. The newer ones have heat ranges. It weighs around 70#, and I can use it almost anywhere. I have done .250 single pass(flux core), and heavier with weld preps, and multiple passes - nothing that structural.

 

Get the best welder that you can afford, don't be afraid of used, and stay with name brands that  you can get parts and service for locally. Big bottles are less expensive than the smaller ones per CF of gas - I run all big bottles. My big CO2 runs around $25 to fill.  I use straight CO2 for all my MIG welding unless it is aluminum, then I run argon. CO2 has more penetration, but more splatter. Flux core gets deep, but splatters and has slag to clean off.  You can weld smaller jobs easier with big amp welders, but you can't weld big jobs easily with low amp welders.  I can run my MP-65E down low enough to run .023" wire for sheet metal, or crank it up high enough to spray arc a .0625" aluminum wire into 1" aluminum. I couldn't even attempt that with the Sp-100, but the SP is a portable 70# whereas the MP is 1,000# on the cart. My Linde is a 350 amp stick welder that can handle structural type welds.  Stick is cheap to run ( no gas, just rods), MIG a bit more (wire, liners, gas, tips, nozzles), and TIG can be expensive (Argon, torches, tungstens,collets, nozzles, rods,......).   I use different gloves depending on what I am doing; heavy for stick and MIG (left hand only), and thin deerskin ones for TIG (sometimes right only). Get a good helmet with proper shade of lens for the type of welding to be done; aluminum gives off a LOT of light during TIG welding. Wear proper clothing; long sleeves,leathers, chaps, etc depending on the process used. Welding gives off a ton of UV rays-bad burns/cancer, and all welding fumes are toxic (fluxes,chromium vapors with Stainless,etc) so ventilation, or a respirator is suggested.

 

There is a LOT more that needs to be learned, so I highly recommend getting some training BEFORE getting a welder. That will be the only way YOU will know what you need, not what we THINK you need.

Good luck in your search, and let us know what you decide.

[Frosty]

I'll own that, and a well deserved chastisement Frosty.

 

I didn't really mean it as chastisement Charles. The mythtique of the MIG just pushes a button and I'm not so diplomatic . . . . anymore. It's not like you were the only guy saying the same thing and it comes up frequently.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Naw, Frosty I ment it in jest, or atleast good humor. I have all the respect in the world for you good sir :-D

[pjh66]

You could look at spending a bit more & get an inverter type MIG/TIG/Stick.

One machine does all three.

a lot of tigs are only DC. You need AC for aluminium welding.

Watch out for a MIG that is sold as a Tig also but is only a scratch TIG Not as easy to use as a high frequency TIG arc.

I know it is just getting more confusing. 

The other thing with some TIGS you can buy is a three in one. TIG, Stick Welder, & Plasma Cutter. Just to confuse things more for you.

[EtownAndrew]

I'm going to support the people recommending MIG/TIG. I have a stick welder and am getting tired of dealing with the slag. I often get slag that is in a pocket in the weld and is very difficult to get out prior to laying down another bead. Also I occasionally think I laid down a good weld and then once the slag is removed realize that I only welded to one side. If I could see the puddle I would have been able to adjust as I was going and get a good weld. It would be nice to finish a weld and have it free of slag because even if it is a good weld it is still difficult sometimes to get all the slag off. So for my own personal use I may hit the weld a couple times to try and knock off some slag and then just leave the rest.

[Robert Yates]

Hey you guys! You have helped me out tremendously in the past and you are all so open and willing to help. I appreciate it greatly.

 

I'm going to invest in a welder. In too many cases now I have really felt the need for one... and I don't have access to one.

like most blacksmiths and I know that that may possibly affect which welder I need. So basically I want to know what you guys think: would and arc, MIG or TIG welder fit my purposes best as a beginner welder? 

 

Thank you guys so much! 

 

Ryan

 

 

Ryan,

 

This Statement alone tells me you need a Bunch of Training! "I have never welded before. I am often using carbon steel and tool steel". One can Only Guesstimate about your abilities to work with any type of steel. I have welded most all of my life and I can tell you the very first thing I teach any student is Safety.You need to consider taking a intro course to Welding 101 and not on here, as there is an intro course posted .I do not think it would help you IMHO. I would recommend one there in Atlanta  and believe me there are some very fine Vocational Schools there.

 

I will bore you or others with a lecture on welding machines, their abilities and Functions as they are already posted here in this section. your question about what machine you need can only be answered by you due to the fact you are the only one that knows what you want to try to do with the welder .

 

Best Regards

 

Sam   

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I used a 3 in one machine once ( Miller) and found it to be a royal pain in the butt to use IE; constantly switching back and forth cables, wires, etc. I prefer dedicated machines myself.

[Frosty]

Naw, Frosty I ment it in jest, or atleast good humor. I have all the respect in the world for you good sir :-D

 

Now you're making me blush. :wacko:

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Francis Trez Cole]

I would agree with the statement about taking a night course that is how I did my certification. Plus you will you will get to use different machines and you can then pick the ones that suit your needs.

[WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith]

Yup, take a course.

 

I recently got a multi process machine and am very happy with it. Everlast also has a forum that can be helpful, just as IFI is. They have a mig, stick, tig machine. They were by far the least expensive machine I found and have good support. They are built of parts that can be gotten off the shelf and are not proprietary. I read a lot of reviews, some folks had some problems with new machines but support walked them through them. These are inverter machines and there is a lot of adjustments available. I would recommend them. But take a course. When I took a course at Appalachian Tech in Jasper, Georgia (on the Hope Grant, read free) the first class was oxy/ac. So I right quick bought a torch and bottles, then took a couple of quarters of stick and right quick bought a stick machine, then took a couple of quarters of Mig and etc. The oxy/ac unit is the only one of the original that I now use but for heating and cutting I now use ox/propane. The new inverter replaces almost all of the other machines that I have bought and now sold, well I still have a huge 350 amp Miller Shopmaster with a wire feed that I need to sell.

 

I'll be at the Alex Bealer Blacksmith (www.alexbealer.org) meeting in June. Come to the meeting and we can visit.

[Frank Turley]

I'm self taught and not certified, and I don't recommend it, because it's time consuming. Taking a class will be a time saver in the long haul.

 

I started with oxy-acetylene, and I agree with Frosty that oxy welding will allow you to slow down a bit and see what's happening with the puddle. It can become a little 'dance'; weave-feed-weave-feed. Although oxy is considered archaic nowadays by some, that is only because in a production setting, it is slower than electric welding.

 

I now have both a stick welder and a MIG welder. I use them both infrequently depending on what I'm welding. I haven't tried TIG yet, although I want to.

 

I'm primarily a forge welder kind of guy.

[Ten Hammers]

I was taught stick at a young age, torch welding in high school.  MIG I picked up myself.  I have a Miller 172, a Wards 210 amp stick and of course the torch ( Victor and Dillon torches, welds with the Dillon ).  School will be your best bet yes unless you have someone like Harold, David, Frank or Frosty for a neighbor.  TIG is a breeze once you get oxyfuel welding.  Stay with a major brand mig ( Miller, Lincoln, ESAB, Hobart, etc) for here in the states.  I use 75/25 gas for the mig here at home.  I have welded with 95/5, 90/10, stargon for stainless and C02.  I have welded with flux core and flux with gas over (in the wind).  Guess I will always use 75/25 at home.  You have a LARGE window of experience in this thread.  I will always use 7018 stick for powershafts and other AG work although the mig is fine for some of it.  Torch welding rusty stuff is fine and so is forge scaled stuff.  All process is handy to have and some are more important than others depending on the situation.  School should teach you about the dangers of bottles and the need to have a good rock grinder to make stack welds among other things.  a good ground is important.  Like has been mentioned, get a GOOD helmet.  you will learn if you like green, red or gold lens.  You will also learn to keep some clean top covers for the helmet.  I have a Jackson old school and a Huntsman automatic (both on shade 10 although I like 9 better sometimes).  I weld oxyfuel with shade 5 shades.

[RKM556]

THANK YOU GUYS once again! Man, ya'll are so helpful it's crazy!

 

Here's the plan: I will be apprenticing with a welder that I know for a few weeks hopefully. He'll help me get started. I'm thinking about the MIG welder since that's what he uses mostly and it seems to be versatile. However I'm still (very obviously) completely inexperienced and unknowledgeable with regards to welding. Reading a couple of books and the experience of welding will help. Thank you guys so much you made me realize all of the work I have ahead of me in learning this skill and I'm really excited about it! Thanks again so much.

 

Ryan

[Frosty]

Good decision Ryan.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Robert Yates]

Glad to Hear that Ryan you will be much better off doing it this way .

 

Sam