North vs South German Design-Pros and Cons

[Chris Covington]

I'm trying to decide between a north or south german style anvil.  I was wondering if there were any pros or cons of each or if its just personal preference.  Specifically im looking at the refflinghaus no 9 and the no 57 ( i dont think i want the side shelf ) .  

[Dan P.]

It's personal preference, really.

There are pros and cons, but they sort of balance out.

And I wouldn't want that side shelf either.

[yesteryearforge]

My personal opinnion Is you would be hard pressed to find a finer anvil no matter which one you choose.

I have a # 9 and a # 58 but both have the side shelf.

[atexascowboy]

Definitely a side shelf. Can act like a forge support arm for supporting your work.

[John McPherson]

Side shelves are like pockets on shirts, you either love them and use them all the time, and then miss them when they are not available; or hate them because they are always in your way.  Several noted smiths have gone so far as to weld them on to their shop anvils. Personal preference, try it you might like it.

[Frank Turley]

I've been using a Fontanini anvil for a few years. Steve blended a few ideas based on the Continental two horned anvil. It has a side shelf, but the upsetting block is not on that same side. It is on the near side, if you're working with the rounding horn to your left. Steve's horn has a little belly to it, London/American style, not so much straight-sided conical. My 250# anvil, when new, had a 5/16" thick end on the side shelf. My journeyman helper and I turned the anvil upside down and disc sanded the shelf leaving half with a 1/16" radius and half of it, sharp. I use it that way on hot splits, for instance drawing fork tines. If the side shelf gets in the way, I work from the other side of the anvil. The hardy hole placement give solidity to one's bottom tools.

 

I used a 250# Trenton for over 35 years, and it is now a student anvil. I still like the Trenton, but I wanted to try the two horned pattern.. Face it; I like 'em all.

[George Geist]

They look like nice ones Mr Turley. Thanks for the link

[philip in china]

I have used an anvil with a side shelf and yes I liked it. It tapered almost to an edge and that was useful for splitting without using the hardie.

[blksmth]

The south German pattern anvil has a smooth transition between the regular anvil face and the round horn.  That space forms a flat space in the shape of a triangle usually with a long point and is bordered on the sides by the large radius of the round horrn.  The length of the flat triangle depends on the size of the anvil & how well the anvil is made.  That triangular space is what sets the south German anvil apart from all others and is generally only found on a few anvils such as Refflinghaus and the true Haberman. It is the main reason the south German anvil is sold as it is a very handy and popular spot on the anvil.  The south German style is one of the oldest forms of anvils.  The north German anvil has a round horn that is more round on top, but there is a practically unuseable edge between the round horn and the main face of the anvil.   

[matei campan]

I think both kinds of transition are useful. when the anvil is double horned one and you don't have that perpendicular to the length edge you have on the ones with a square heel, the edge between face and round horn comes on handy. at least that's how I feel, as I use both features on different anvils.  I have also a south german pattern cast steel copy with still a rough shaped "round" horn", in fact a rounded edges pyramid, which I want to shape to a have a transition from almost flat with rounded edges to perfect round at the tip. it won't look "classic", but I think it will be more useful and will complement the other anvils.

that's why, if you have more anvils is good to have different pattern and will complement each other.

[blksmth]

To add to my post above, the smooth transition space from the main face of the anvil and the round horn takes the place of a step on a London pattern anvil.  Even though a London pattern built in step is very useful at times, the smooth transition is used more often than the step by many smiths that have the smooth transition.  When a step is needed in a south German style anvil a block is placed in the hardy hole.  The north German anvil is thought of as having an inset round horn which is as if someone stuck a cone on the end of the main face.  The top of the cone is typically even with or slightly lower than the main anvil face.  Even though the north German pattern anvil doesn't have a smooth transition, it does have two square corners in the main anvil face that the south German anvil does not have, unless you have one with the side shelf.  With the side shelf you have the same type of heel found on a London pattern anvil with 2 square corners.  The side shelf makes an effective wide acting anvil out of a narrow anvil.  A narrow anvil is often desired by ornamental smiths, but the side shelf is available for support such as is helpful when forge welding awkward forgings.  Both the south and north German anvils have the hardy hole in the main anvil face, but at the round horn end.  That is a very strong place on the anvil.  Also the hardy hole next to the round horn allows most users to leave a hardy tool in the hardy hole without fear of cutting their fingers.  That only works for those that are right handed and place the round horn on their left as they stand at the anvil.  

[jlpservicesinc]

So I did a search for North vs South German anvils and this thread came up. 

I own a Refflinghaus model 58 460lbs. 

Nice job on the descriptors "Blksmth".  

I have found the South German pattern to be more usable than the North German but it's because I have the side shelf.    the north German with no side shelf is useful when forging scarfs on chain and such where the sq corner at the horn is useful.   But the closest section of the horn near the face is useless for what I do or the type of forging I do. the Peddinghaus 275 model 12 has a 1" rise at the corner of the face to the horn. 

The South German style because of the side shelf has all the advantages of that square corner of the northern pattern but in a decent position with the side shelf.  (chain and this type of scarf is easy to forge). 

of note I have the anvil horn pointing to the right though I am right handed.  this puts the side shelf towards instead of away  as in traditional use.  I bought this for the side shelf as Frank pointed out so I could work forks and splits easier as I work mainly in hardware. 

The only disadvantage with the side shelf I have found and it's more because of not being as accurate with a hammer strike is forging of knife blades.  On the London pattern or the North German pattern there is a lip so forge on at the horn.  with the South German it becomes using the side shelf or using a set for the hardie. 

A set for the hardie will be the way I go as then I don't have to worry about missed strikes on the face of the anvil. 

anyhow,  great thread of the differences and was nice to find it. 

[Frosty]

I have a question, I've never used either pattern anvil so have no experience. I see a number of people saying you use the smooth transition between face and round horn. I accept that but don't know what you use that feature for? 

I know what I do with the step most often and it's not what most of the guys I know do, heck most don't use it at all. 

I'm not taking sides I'm just always interested in how folks use their tools and what works for them, my mental tool kit has room for anything useful. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Various radii. 

Also closer to the face the radius is smaller so not only acts as a better (narrower) fuller, but also can act as a termination point like the edge of the anvils face so the hammers far edge  will miss the anvil.

The radius of the horn changes across it. Flatter towards the face and round at its tip.

Much like a farriers anvil. 

Technically it really is just an extension of the face as its fully hardened as well. 

I made the bolts for the anvil hold downs and the flat section leading to that steeper radius off the far side allows for the transition to be very smooth with only the use of the anvil proper with no swaging.

Extremely happy with the Refflinghaus purchase even at the price point.

The Peddinghaus is a great anvil and very, very hard. On par with or even a tad harder then the Refflinghaus. 

But the fit, finish and overall usability for me goes to the Refflinghaus. 

 

[Old Crew]

JLP

I have seen south german style anvils like your Refflinghaus with the side shelf on the same side as the upset block and other south german anvils with the side shelf on the opposite side the upset block. It seems that you would have better access to the upset block with the side shelf on the opposite side , but not having used either style don't have an opinion. I am looking at purchasing a south german anvil at some point. What are the pros and cons of the side shelf on upset block side or the opposite side?

 

 

[jlpservicesinc]

they made this in a left hand and a right hand version.  this is a right hand version so the side shelf should be on the other side or far side of the anvil and the horn to the left.  So depending on whether it's a left hand or right hand anvil as well as the MFG depends on which side the upsetting block is on.  

Because I wanted to use it for doing forks and the like and prefer my horn to the right this works out very well. 

As for the upsetting block on the side shelf side.     It doesn't reallly matter much.  From the videos I have watched and the info both have given,   Hofi and the Habermann like the side shelf on the upsetting side so they can brace the work piece against it while they smack the top of the rod they are upsetting with a hammer.  Both of their anvil designs are modifications of a Southern German anvil. And they use an upsetting block based on the feet. Really cool design. I wanted on of the 500lbs Habermann or Hofi anvils but no longer available in the older designs. Now they are selling a different pattern which I think is because the anvil MFG got so expensive. 

This bracing can still be done with the Refflinghaus but find it isn't needed on the smaller items I forge.   Its funny but upsetting 3/4" or larger the bracing comes in handy. 

I actually prefer to upset closer to my center line so reaching over the anvil to upset using the block is not such a good thing.   I like the block right in front of me. 

Buy the way.  And upsetting block is typically only used when the pieces are long enough so you can still swing a hammer with a normal swing vs using the face of the anvil. 

If the item is short enough the face of the anvil is still used. 

I had originally thought the side shelf would get in the way while doing normal work but find it doesn't at all.  I do find I am more accurate when forging bevels when its on the far side though vs the close side. Not sure why. 

Hope this helps. 

[ThomasPowers]

And for a long heavy piece, a steel upsetting block in the floor of the shop is handy.

[tanglediver]

On 3/18/2013 at 5:29 PM, blksmth said:

... Both the south and north German anvils have the hardy hole in the main anvil face, but at the round horn end.  That is a very strong place on the anvil.  Also the hardy hole next to the round horn allows most users to leave a hardy tool in the hardy hole without fear of cutting their fingers.  That only works for those that are right handed and place the round horn on their left as they stand at the anvil.  

Is it then generally the norm to use an anvil, of any pattern, with the hardy hole away from your hammer hand?

[Marc1]

it is for safety reasons, Hardy away from you hammer is safer.

 

As for Nth vs Sth style, the smooth transition of the horn is not always as smooth as Refflinghaus makes it today.

Check the website anvils 4 sale and they have a few old and alleged southern anvils with the same smooth transition yet a small corner step just like the one in the photo on the other thread. They even have an old Refflinghaus also allegedly southern, that looks like a hybrid with a london pattern. 

[jlpservicesinc]

I prefer my hardie towards my left hand vs right if the face of the anvil is towards my right hand.. Or simply "hardie on my non hammer hand".

this way I am not working  nor swinging a hammer directly inline with the hardie installed directly at the anvil. 

I then can leave hardie in the anvil while I work on making nails and such since the hardie is the furthest away from my work area and not crossing over a live hardie mounted in the anvil vs having to remove it while I forge.

It is sitting  basically in a safe zone. 

 

34 minutes ago, Marc1 said:

it is for safety reasons, Hardy away from you hammer is safer.

 

As for Nth vs Sth style, the smooth transition of the horn is not always as smooth as Refflinghaus makes it today.

Check the website anvils 4 sale and they have a few old and alleged southern anvils with the same smooth transition yet a small corner step just like the one in the photo on the other thread. They even have an old Refflinghaus also allegedly southern, that looks like a hybrid with a london pattern. 

Marc1    thats funny because I was going to send you to" blacksmith paradise "to look at the same thing.    But figured it's a dead horse thing so wasn't going to bother. 

you can choose which ever way you want.   I consider the Refflinghaus south German to offer these attributes as do all other south German patterns   the North German no matter how you slice it still have a sharper corner at the face to horn junction even if worn.  

smaller or larger junction. Wear vs no wear. etc, etc.       Anyhow, it's a horse thing and any anvil even the Fontanini in USA I consider a North german style..  I can not get my hammer into the radius.

The kanca is a south german pattern. 

And of note. The Swedish style anvil also has the soft transition and it's narrower for the most part well at least the style I like.  I'd love to find a 200-300lbs swedish style anvil. 

Anyhow,  Southern style very soft corner, Northern style hard corner. 

Ah, to be crazy.  Isn't it wonderful. 

 

 

[Marc1]

Yep ... only a few month ago i was looking at the collection of anvils that I don't use and thought why not flog them all and buy just one Reffi around the 200 k mark., definitely model 58

Upsetting block on the same side as the shelf ... to me it gives stability when using the shelf ... but may be it is just an intellectual exercise.

As for the topic at hand, northern style horn is a cone, perfectly round and applied ... or appearing to be applied to the side of the body.A very flat and vertical side of the body. The face of the anvil finishes where the cone starts, in a very definite fashion. In fact there is a small step even in the center line.

Southern pattern cone is not conical. The face continues over the horn and the horn has a distinct flat area that gets narrower until it finishes half way up the cone. it's like someone took a northern pattern and milled it down to extend the face onto the cone. Yes, most have the corners of the body ground back as an extension of the horn onto the body, but ... apparently some did not bother doing that.

Swedish anvils are great. I believe the Hofi anvil to be more like a swedish than a souther german, but hei. It's all academic or anecdotic and for entertainment purposes only

Narrow anvil can be nice or can be a curse. Depend of what you do. I like real estate on the anvil. wide long area to mash at my heart content ...

Did anyone mention rebound 

[ThomasPowers]

TangleDiver; There are a lot of folks claiming that there is one true way to orient an anvil, not paying attention to the handedness of the smith or what they are doing.  I do not agree.  Put the anvil the way that best supports your method of work, handedness and job!

I've turned an anvil upside down before to use the indentation as a dishing form, didn't pay attention to which end the hardy hole was. Back a number of years when this was being discussed I went through "Practical Blacksmithing" and every time someone had a diagram of their smithy I noted the orientation of the anvil---IIRC the first one the anvil was pointed horn toward the smith---they made rings.  Otherwise both horn to right and horn to left were well represented.

Things get more complicated with European double horned anvils or even anvils with two hardy holes, one at either end. (My Blacker Fisher is like that!) Safety is the users responsibility; getting used to always removing hardy tooling when not in use is a better habit than depending on it being at the other end of the anvil---because someday it might not be!

[jlpservicesinc]

9 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

getting used to always removing hardy tooling when not in use is a better habit than depending on it being at the other end of the anvil---because someday it might not be!

Thomas's go to statement here is the line standard and very much accepted as the rule of thumb.  

Take the hardie out when not in use..   

LOL. Safety is the sole responsibility of the user..  Laughable but its core meaning is to be true.  Foul mood response with who's responsible and who's not for ones own actions. 

[ThomasPowers]

I'm teaching this Sunday and I'll be chanting "Take the Hardy out when not in use." over and over again. 

Perhaps I should look into a Latin version and work up a Gregorian chant: (Per the chant in Monty Python and the Holy Grail)

  When you use the hardy not, takest thou the hardy out!---THUNK!

[Randy Griffin]

I guess anvil orientation is kinda like getting on a horse. I've mounted them from the right side before and the horse didn't seem to mind.