gearhartironwerks Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Hi, Does anyone know about using a dilute acrylic polymer for quenching? I've heard a little about it being used in bladesmithing, but have no resource. Any thoughts? Thanks, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Remember that in bladesmithing a lot of stuff is done more for the hype than for the need. (a good example is folks cryo quenching alloys that pretty much have zilch retained austenite which is what cryo quenching is designed for!) Do you need the "believed" properties for what you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'm open to trying new ideas. Nothing ventured, nothing gained... And, I'm not certain about your statement about "hype" in bladesmithing. It seems to me that bladesmiths have a pretty good handle on metalurgy/heat treating. We, as blacksmiths, can learn from their effforts. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kehler Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I've used polymer quenchant at my last job, one advantage is flexibility, you can mix it to different densities to get faster or slower quenches. Personally I didn't like the smell of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 What did the quenchant consist of and can you please describe it? Thanks, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Apparently not so new of technology http://www.tenaxol.com/history.html Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'm open to trying new ideas. Nothing ventured, nothing gained... And, I'm not certain about your statement about "hype" in bladesmithing. It seems to me that bladesmiths have a pretty good handle on metalurgy/heat treating. We, as blacksmiths, can learn from their effforts. John Many bladesmiths seem to over do claims. Adverts boasting use of a new "super steel", and latest high tech quenchant, and cryo freezing, while in fact a simple 1084 can do most of what any other steel can. Its mainly for marketing. Using simple alloys one can get near full conversion. Sub zero quenching, which is near -170F and only need be used for the high alloys that tend to retain a lot of austenite such as many stainless steels, to force transformation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kehler Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 John, I'm afraid I don't remember too many of the finer details it was about 15 years ago. I just know we had to keep it at a certain concentration checked it every morning and added as necessary, it was a green goopy liquid like a thicker anti-freeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I have looked into polimer quenchant and they seem to be a good alternative to fast ht oil a lott better environmentaly. I have not personaly tried them as the minimum quantaties that are needed to purchase in the uk are huge. I think they would have a place HTing low alloy steels for a deeper harden than you get from fast oil, without the unreasonably high risk of cracking associated with water. I would be interested in trying them if i can find a suitably scaled supplier. As an aside Thomas and Steve its always good to slag off a whole craft , especialy about something that is irelevant to the Thread topic and without giving any usefull or positive contrebution in the process............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I would check out this site http://www.industrialheating.com/ and search for old articles on polymer quenching. Their advertiser list will also help you find local suppliers who may be able to give you more information. These guys may also be able to help you and may be willing to sell you smaller quantities. http://www.parkthermal.com/ I spoke to them about small industrial HT furnaces a year or two ago and they seemed to be reasonable to deal with. Not cheap but willing to talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Well Basher I spent a lot of time in the knife world when I was working for a professional swordmaker, went to the Knifemakers' guild shows when they were still in KC and Dallas, talked with a lot of makers, etc. It helped that the Father of the fellow I worked with was a research Metallurgist and we were in a Uni town and so could go visit the MatSci department and discuss oddball stuff. And what I learned is that a *lot* of selling knives is Hype and much is done that has no validity except for "hype"---quenching in blood is no better than quenching in urine for example. Also a lot of Urban Legends abound and a lot of folks claiming special stuff (cf "living steel") that was just bogus or had little effect. (not a new thing, look at the list of Renaissance quenchants and the claims made for them in "Sources for the History of the Science of Steel 1532-1786") I am most familiar with the use of *special* quenchants WRT blademaking and so perhaps assumed that the original question might actually be asking WRT that field and so thought my answer was germane---especially as bladesmithing is mentioned in the original post. I do not feel that warning people to *not* accept blindly claims in that field is a bad thing even though I've been making blades for only a bit more than 30 years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 Geez...I didn't expect a pissing match. I am simply in search of an alternative to an oil quenchant that is controlable and a liitle more earth friendly. It's out there somewhere...and you guys are the best. John www.gearhartironwerks.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkunkler Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Geez...I didn't expect a pissing match. Whatever you do, don't cross the streams, it would be bad. (Ghostbusters) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Hi John. I have had good luck with dilute methacrylic acid polymer quenchants. Even at a percent or so, they have markedly gentler characteristics than water. For a quick and dirty polymer solution, you can use the crystals out of disposable diapers. They are fairly high molecular weight, and aren't really soluble, but they will emulsify, which is almost as good. Also, they are really kind of high in molecular weight to biodegrade, but they will photodegrade. In other words, used quenchant can be disposed of on the ground surface and it should be safe. I can't say the same for oil or even brine. There is an article in the CBA magazine a few years back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Basher most of my work is blades, and I like your work. While I do respect your ideas and opinions, I do not see where you get the idea that myself and Thomas were slaging bladesmiths or the craft? I was making reply aboput the hype in advertizing blades tat is very common ere in the states. A statement about the many manufacturers that hype things just to make sales. I always try to improve my work. but experimentation does not change science. If need be I can get a bigger list of adverts, the older ones are no longer found as being only hype, they have faded away already. One example is a maker getting large sums for cold hammered used truck spring swords. hyping HE dont use heat to preserve the advanced heat treat that auto manufactures already did to them. they aim at the rest of us by stating we cant possibly do a better eat treat than the million dollar scientist there already did. and how we are delusional or lairs stating other wise and then file in court any one that disputes his claims or mentions his name unfavorably. He never explains why a auto plant would be making their Heat treat operations for swords, but nevertheless. This same person claims to own the patent on modern wootz and threatens to file for any one stating otherwise. ask Don Fogg and Tim Lively. 2) 1095 or 5160 for swords then after cutting to shape, cold peens the edges and cryo freezes and calls it forged Super steel, and some times refers to it as damascus, call it what you wish its still 1095 or 5160. See History channel 3) I even heard of a blood and urine mix for quenching as "the only way to add extra carbon and duplicate ancient methods" etc etc.... I am sure there may be an old recipe for this in a book somewhere, that does not add carbon, nor make for a better blade than many other methods. Please Basher, I showed you my examples of Hype to make a buck, show me where did we disrespect you or the blade smiting craft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Ah no; Basher's a good guy and a good smith; we probably just hit a bad patch together (I've got an abscessed tooth that I have to wait till Wednesday to get worked on as I can't afford to have it done in the States. So I'm on OTC pain relievers and antibiotics till then---makes me peevish) Still hope I can spot him a beer sometime and we can argue this face to face or discuss the relevance of Cricket to the hunt for the Higgs boson and the cornish pasty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I think the the original poster was just asking if anyone has any experience with the acrylic polymer quenchants. If anyone has any experience with them, then they can relate those experiences. If you don't have any experiences with them, then why comment in such a negative fashion? Mr Gunter's Superquench appears to have a place. Perhaps acrylic polymers do as well??? I don't think they have anything to do with blood or urine either. Seriously, the snarky comments that come out in some of these posts really introduce a negative vibe into this forum sometimes.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I answered a question that was asked, as shown in my first post. for the record I have used some polymers, I did not see any advantage, but neither did I do any real testing. so I didnt comment about that part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) Can you say that you have used it and have results to show it? Mr. Gearhart said nothing about the type of steel he was using. Oh, I see you added some additional comments after I posted. I'm sure Mr. Gearhart would be open to hearing some real world results. Edited July 27, 2012 by Sask Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Ladies... please! We are mostly SOME sort of bladesmiths and I think that few of us that have seen Basher's work would feel like he is guilty of any over hyping! I love you all as family and want to see you all shaking hands and playing nice together! I know the work of most everyone here and it all deserves respect (or rather more than that)! I think most of you guys could make good quenchant even in the deepest wilderness! This is the home of TRUE bladesmiths who are focused on quality craftsmanship and we need not concern ourselves with those wannabes who are all about selling themselves as the greatest blademasters in the history of the universe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptree Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I have industrial experience with polymer quenchants. The subject polymer was used in water and a propritary concentration to soften the quench a bit. The steel was a slightly modified 1045H and 1541H. Both had some difficult corners in truck axle forgings and were induction scanned for the heat treat. Plain water caused very high quench crack rates. The polymer was a mess, sticky, stank, and was quite costly. Hard to deal with the seller, had to buy in 55 gallon drums and they were a pain to deal with period. That said it made the process possible. When I forge the same material at home, for hammer heads and the like, I use veggie oil and get a little softer finished HT, bu avoid cracking almost completly. The polymers work, at least in that process. Don't see the advantage for a knife, but then I have no direct experience with polymer quench for blades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin1050 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Veggie oil is safe for the enviro. Plus it can be recyled into biodiesel afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Veggie oil is safe for the enviro. Plus it can be recyled into biodiesel afterwards. I like that my blades come out smelling like french fries! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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