Using the hardy hole for making tools, let's stir the pot.

[JNewman]

Has anyone here broken off the heel of an anvil or know anyone who has broken the heel off while making a tool to go in the hardy hole? I recently read a comment made to Alec S 's youtube video chastising him for making tools in the hardy hole because he would draw the temper of the face of the anvil. I know a popular demonstrator who is an excellent smith, advocates using a swage block for making bottom tools. I don't understand this as I only know of one block made with square holes in it that is not cast iron.

I have upset several tools into the hardy hole in making them and never had any ill effects to my anvil and it has a fairly light tail. While a better supported tail would make the upsetting more efficient and if I were making a lot of tools by hand I might make a specialized upsetting anvil like Brian Brazeel has. I see no reason not to make a few tools for my own use in the anvil hardy tool as there is no better way to make them fit it exactly, as this is the method that has been used for centuries. (yes I know there would be less upsetting and more forge welding up mass on the top).

Lets hear some other opinions. Do you make tools in your anvil hardy hole? Why not?

[jeremy k]

No need to stir the pot - now just what would a smith do if he had only an anvil and a hammer to get started? Of course he would make his own tools and that would include any hardy tools he needed, I would have a hard time believing that was taboo to do when you make your own tools with what you have. I do, and have not damaged my anvil doing so. TOOL UP GUYS!!!

[Glenn]

My understanding is that if you form the post and tool HOT, there is little danger as the hot metal will conform to the shape of the hole, or conform to the shape being made as the bottom tool. It is hammering COLD iron that DOES NOT fit into a hardie hole that causes the problem of undue pressure.

Making a hardie post in YOUR anvil does not mean it will fit other anvils, or even fit your anvil if rotated 90* or 180*. It is a perfect fit only in the configuration in which it was made. (All hardie holes are not square or 90 degrees at the corners.)

To avoid this problem, use something other than a solid hardie post. Make the post from tubing, a loop of round or flat bar, or a piece of flat bar attached to the hardie plate on the diagonal.

[Francis Trez Cole]

I made a Brian Brazeal anvil because my hardie hole is 5/8" square most hardie tools are 1" to 1 1/4". I wanted an anvil at a different height as well.

[JNewman]

The reason I want to stir the pot is because there seems to be a view held these days that there is something wrong with \using the hardy hole this way.

[jeremy k]

The Hardy hole is there for a reason....... to use it.

[Timothy Miller]

I have upset many a hardy tool in my anvil. I have once turned the corners of the hardy hole blue from heat. It seemed not to soften the steel noticeably as I suspect it was equal to or less than the original temper of the anvil. I could see if it were an old built up anvil that you could possibly knock off the heal if it were cracked already. Fortunately those anvils are few and far between even though I have seen a few. I stopped upsetting them when I got a power hammer and started drawing them down from larger stock. I also find upset hardy tools can end up being loose in the hole because the tool shank will shrink as the forging cools no matter what you do. If you forge the shank a bit over size then file it to fit you have a nice fitting tool. If you are forging dozens of parts using a hardy tool with a loose shank you will see the difference in how hard you have to work. With a tight tool more of the energy goes into forming the work not moving the tool. What I never under stood is why some people call it a post instead of a shank its not bearing a lode it is just there to hold the tool in place.

[Alec.S]

I do, and personally, though my anvil is a beautiful 230 pound peter wright, as with all my tools , i will USE it as a tool. I use it. If that tool breaks, then hey. i can either put it to other use. If the heel breaks off, well hey , i have no heel... the only absolute need for a heel is space underneath, for clearance. Other wise it is actually a hindrance to a smith. Because it does not have backing, one looses a lot of energy due to that... Energy that is NOT going into the metal itself. If i had a choice, i would have the hardie hole as close to the central mass as possible.
Yes, loosing hardness is an issue... you can worry about it or not.... your choice, not mine... but personally... again, i use my tools. So i dont care about loosing hardness too too much. But, in one uppsetting of a bottom tool we had the WHOLE ( 230 pound ) anvil steaming ( feet included ) and the hardie hole area was at LEAST a blue temper, it might have gone all the way grey.

I say, use a tool, dont abuse it by not using it.... they have feelings you know

But, all people have different opinions on the matter. I am just stating mine!

alec

P.S thanks for checking out my you tube vids, JNEWMAN!

P.S.S sorry if any of what i wrote didnt sound like english...

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

I've made many hardy tools in many different anvils, and I have never broken an anvil that was not already broke.
I also believe that you should not use a hardy tool that was not made to fit your hardy hole, and the most efficient way to fit the shank is to forge it close then forge it into the hole.

[John B]

Steady young Alec, the heel is there for a purpose, and the thicknesses differ with every anvil make.

Hardies should be fitted to the hardie hole, and specific to an anvil, nowadays it tends to be accepatable to make them with a tapered shank to fit different sizes of hardie holes

Personally I have no problems forging into the hardie hole for specific anvils, and will often rotate them to fit all four ways, they should be a good fit, not a tight fit, and that is where shrikage as they cool helps.

I have more of a problem with people coming along and using bolster chisels and other "make do" tools in the hardie hole, damaging the edges and making it difficult to use the proper tools forged for that anvil

I know we have all seen anvils with a heel broke off, but how many have actually had one break on them, or seen one break.????

And how and under what circumstances were they broken ??

There is a difference between use and abuse.

[FieryFurnace]

Lots of opinions here. Interesting topic!

I have tried to make hardy tools in the hardy hole and failed.....mostly due to the fact that I did not have properly shaped material to begin with.....this being several years back.

I will not forge a hardy tool in the hole on my shop anvil because of one reason.There are cracks in the face plate at the hardy hole. One crack extends from the corner of the hole to the outer edge of the anvil and through the 3/4" face plate. Another crack extends from the prichel hole to the edge of the anvil and throught the thickness of the plate. The mass or body of the heel seems to be solid, and there is about two or three inches of material under the horn side of the hardy hole. I don't think that I'll have any problems from it, but I'm not risking that. I don't have any proble using a hot cut, guilotene, or bending fork in the hole on my anvil. Like Alec, said, it's a tool. I'm not going to make it undergo unneeded stress. If it breaks while I'm using a tool in it, thats that.

I'm with southshore, I've got a power hammer now so it takes less energy to just forge the shaft down from larger material.

I agree with John, the heel is there and is needed. I have used the anvils with the hardy hole right behind the horn, and I prefer it in the heel. I like the horn to the right and I like the hardy hole to the left. Also, if you are using a key-lock hardy, you can't use that when the hole is in the mass. (At least on the type anvil I was using.)

As far as overheating and changing temper......treat it like a spring steel punch. Form the tool, cool the anvil, form the tool, cool the anvil!
Anyway, my .02

[pkrankow]

After looking up some information on drawing temper, I would not worry about the color drawn to blue, maybe even farther. It is still going to be quite hard and resilient.

I however, made a bolster plate and use that to upset the hardies I have needed heavily upset. The bolster has sharper edges than my anvil, so the tool sits neatly in more positions when I am done. However loss of energy to vibration is a significant concern in a production setting, and my bolster forms a slightly undersized product compared to my anvil, so it is slightly loose.

After looking at the options and arguments, the anvil is a tool. It would be very disappointing if I broke my anvil, and a slight hardship to replace it for me, but I doubt upsetting hot steel on an anvil in fair condition will do any damage to the anvil if some care is taken to prevent overheating and the overhand blows with a sledge hammer are delivered to ONLY the steel that is heated to forging temperatures - Don't miss!

I have a broken ASO that I cut a new hardy into - with a chisel, so it isn't that difficult. I have the bolster plate - that I cut the hole with a chisel, and having the tool, I will use the tools I have. Chiseling a square hole is time consuming.

Phil

[Francis Trez Cole]

I would question the point of drawing the temper out of the face of the anvil. I have seen many a hardie tool made and it seems that the post cools very quickly and the blob of metal on top stays hot for a while. You would have to get the whole anvil up to a sufficient heat to have a major effect on the temper. If you are really worried cool your anvil off in between heats but I thank that would more damage to the grain structure of the metal the just letting it cool on its own. I have worked 2 1/4" steel and have not seen any change in my anvil at all. What you hear more about is warming up the anvil from it being to cold in the winter more than anything.

[Fosterob]

On 8/26/2011 at 9:19 AM, FieryFurnace said:

I agree with John, the heel is there and is needed. I have used the anvils with the hardy hole right behind the horn, and I prefer it in the heel. I like the horn to the right and I like the hardy hole to the left. Also, if you are using a key-lock hardy, you can't use that when the hole is in the mass. (At least on the type anvil I was using.)

Dave,
What do you mean by key-lock hardy? Never heard that before.
Rob

[ThomasPowers]

As I recall Sandpile mentioned breaking the heel off a "family" anvil which he ascribed to working on it when it was too cold out with out pre-heating the anvil.

I own an anvil with the heel broken off at the hardy edge (towards the horn) and missed the hardy so much I built a prosthetic one for it.

I've double teamed striking to drive a caterpillar valve lifter into the hardy hole of an anvil---but it was a 400# Columbian. I sure wouldn't want to try that with my 93 pound A&H with such a thin and delicate heel.

In general I don't upset hardies using the hardy hole though I do do final fitting of them using it.

There is a heck of a difference between *using* a tool and *abusing* a tool. One is generally considered a good thing and the other not---at least in *my* shop! (I sure wish someone had explained that to the welders who used a 400# Trenton with a beautiful flat face and good edges as a prop when they were air arc gouging mining equipment leaving gouges in the face! Though I guess that would be ok with some folks as they were *using* the tool.)

Especially with old traditionally made anvils where the heel was jump welded to the body I would exercise care. For large ones with a single mass for the top section I would not be as worried.

Why should we expect their to be only *1* answer---we're *blacksmiths*!

[pkrankow]

On 8/26/2011 at 9:59 AM, Francis Trez Cole said:

I would question the point of drawing the temper out of the face of the anvil. I have seen many a hardie tool made and it seems that the post cools very quickly and the blob of metal on top stays hot for a while. You would have to get the whole anvil up to a sufficient heat to have a major effect on the temper. If you are really worried cool your anvil off in between heats but I thank that would more damage to the grain structure of the metal the just letting it cool on its own. I have worked 2 1/4" steel and have not seen any change in my anvil at all. What you hear more about is warming up the anvil from it being to cold in the winter more than anything.

 

My point is I would not be worried about the temper around the hardy hole being drawn some while upsetting a tool in it, not that I would want to deliberately draw any temper out of my anvil face.

I would prefer my anvil's temper to not be changed by anything I do to or with it.

Phil

 

[Alec.S]

in my previous comment... i was just throwing in my thoughts on the subject. As i thought was the purpose of this thread, so that people would get different opinions on the subject. though potential quite controversial, it was just my opinion.
Just had to write that to clear the air. Though, in type print , it may as felt as if i was SHOUTING my thoughts due to the exessive capital letters, i was just making sure that part was read because it added a bit more depth to my " story "

sorry for any confusion, alec

[John B]

No offence taken Alec, we are all entitled to our opinion and we can always agree to differ.

I used to tell my apprentices, do it now while you know it all, age and experience may well alter that opinion.

[Francis Trez Cole]

On 8/26/2011 at 12:20 PM, Phil Krankowski said:

My point is I would not be worried about the temper around the hardy hole being drawn some while upsetting a tool in it, not that I would want to deliberately draw any temper out of my anvil face. I would prefer my anvil's temper to not be changed by anything I do to or with it.

I would not to change mine either

 

 

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Seems to be enough difference of opinion that one should do so in the full knowledge of the possible consequences. That's the real value in a thread like this. No right or wrong answer, just food for thought.

[KYBOY]

It depends on the anvil..I have 4 anvils, on three of them I would not forge on the heel that way because of the thinness of the heel and/or construction..Like Thomas said, a jump welded heel may not stand up to sledge hammers blows for very long..
One of them has a broken heel. Broke off at the hardy hole. An 80 pound anvils heel isnt meant to be forged on with a sledge..I rebuilt the heel after I got it so not a big deal.
I would rather have a swage block for that kind of work but as we all know swage blocks are costly and hard to come by..
Now I will forge down a shank to near size and then use the hardy hole to fit on the smaller anvils, but Im careful even with that..

[FieryFurnace]

On 8/26/2011 at 10:30 AM, Fosterob said:

What do you mean by key-lock hardy? Never heard that before.

Mr. Rob,
Key lock hardy! ok! Say you have a one inch hardy hole. Take 1x1/4" bar and fold it over with a 1/2" gap between. Weld the open end to the base of the hardy tool, and make sure the looped end of the stock sticks bellow the base of the hardy hole. Then you drive a large hand forged key into the shaft! SUPER solid with no play. I don't use one but I've seen them in action, and I've used them in he past. They are nice!

 

 

[Drewed]

On 8/26/2011 at 12:01 PM, ThomasPowers said:

As I recall Sandpile mentioned breaking the heel off a "family" anvil which he ascribed to working on it when it was too cold out with out pre-heating the anvil.....

I find it hard to believe that not preheating your anvil would make any difference there. These are metal anvils. Sure everything gets more brittle when cold, but was he forgeing in -40c? I was under the impression that you "pre-heat" an anvil so it doesn't draw the heat out of your work so fast, rather than to make your anvil more flexible. Just my thoughts, and I could be completely wrong.

Oh wait, I'm a smith, I'm never wrong, you just asked the wrong question! lol

[ThomasPowers]

Hey it's Friday, you can call me a Vermicious Knid to my face and I won't get upset. We are probably a mix of folks using their stuff out on the edge of disaster and folks too cautious to use a hardened hammer on their anvils. There's things I will do to my anvils that I won't allow students to do---too easy for them to mess one up and if something was to happen I'd rather it was me that done it and not them!

As I recall Sandpile said it was powerful cold when he had the heel fall off that anvil and I know that some materials are more sensitive to cold embrittlement than others---you may recall the discussion of the possible cold embrittlement of cold short wrought iron in the Titanic disaster. It's pretty much subjective and anecdotal evidence though wrt anvils.

As blacksmiths we are exposed to enough *old* stuff that we can be wary about ascribing modern steel traits to stuff that predates the Bessemer process and we are aware that modern steels can be weird too!---I once had a strain hardened micro alloyed leaf spring---couldn't be quench hardened! Only seen one of them in 30+ years of smithing...so far.

Since a cold anvil is such a heat sink making working on it difficult I'll preheat anyway and so not worry about the other possibility!

Now my main shop anvil has *2* 1.5" hardy holes and I have not been using it for upsetting hardy tools into though it's a stout anvil, because I don't like hand working steel that heavy! I tend to take top tools and forge down the eyes to fit into the hardy holes, truing them up with my large screw press and then doing the final fitting on the anvil with the work HOT and using a lead hammer to seat them in the hardy holes. (the lead hammer because the face of the tools are already shaped and I don't want to mess them up while seating them in the hardy hole)

I had one student having great trouble with hammer control after wincing every time he missed the work and hit the anvil face with the edge of the hammer for a while I asked him if he was using his dominant hand to hold the hammer. No he wanted "to train his off hand". Told him that was nice but he had to damage his own tools to do that rather than mine---the class was run only slightly above cost and not enough to cover willful damage.

[Drewed]

Titanic?!? Just how old do you think I am? Lol

I really don't think I could break off the tail of my anvil if I wanted to, however, I think it would be easier to beat the piece into relative shape first, then final fit it in the hardy. Seems easier than pounding the whole thing threw.

Round peg, square hole? Sure, if you get it hot enough....