Using the hardy hole for making tools, let's stir the pot.

[John B]

On 8/26/2011 at 8:24 PM, Drewed said:

I really don't think I could break off the tail of my anvil if I wanted to, however, I think it would be easier to beat the piece into relative shape first, then final fit it in the hardy. Seems easier than pounding the whole thing threw.

Round peg, square hole? Sure, if you get it hot enough....

Whoever suggested pounding the whole thing through ? Or is this another U tube video in the comedy/dangerous practices section?

 

[ciladog]

Key-lock-hardy

[silkhopesmith]

most old hardie tools were made by jump welding the stem to a thick block, avoiding the need to upset a big piece in the anvil. you still fit it to the anvil hot, but very little time in the hardie hole is needed and very little pounding.
Its a lot easier to soften the face than harden it.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

On 8/27/2011 at 8:35 AM, silkhopesmith said:

most old hardie tools were made by jump welding the stem to a thick block, avoiding the need to upset a big piece in the anvil. you still fit it to the anvil hot, but very little time in the hardie hole is needed and very little pounding.
Its a lot easier to soften the face than harden it.

Maybe, but I've never seen one that way.

[Timothy Miller]

On 8/27/2011 at 3:49 PM, Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver said:

Maybe, but I've never seen one that way.

That's cause you live on the west coast Washington state wasn't even part of the US when smiths worked that way. It makes more sense to weld on a stem when you only have wrought iron to work with. I have a window sill full of steel faced wrought iron tooling some of it that was rebuilt by welding new iron to it. Once you beat the swage down to the eye you just welded a new striking end to it and reformed the eye.

[Timothy Miller]

You can also forge weld a collar onto a piece of square stock the right size and make a hardie tool that way. It saves forging down heavy stock. It is actually a lot less work.

[Alec.S]

that is a very very good idea!!

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

That's cause you live on the west coast Washington state wasn't even part of the US when smiths worked that way. It makes more sense to weld on a stem when you only have wrought iron to work with. I have a window sill full of steel faced wrought iron tooling some of it that was rebuilt by welding new iron to it. Once you beat the swage down to the eye you just welded a new striking end to it and reformed the eye.

Well, I have seen top tools that way. Start talking steel faced wrought iron and I'm not sure it's much less work. When you start making your bottom tools that way, let me know! :wacko:

[Timothy Miller]

I have both top and bottom tooling made that way. If you want to see built up bottom tools look at the book "the tools of the Shelburne museum". I don't make my tooling that way because I live in the modern world. I have a power hammer and good hardenable steel in a wide variety a of sizes and alloys. If I don't have it its just a phone call away. But in @ 1840 when you have just the material on hand and new stock is days or weeks away you made do with what you had. So building up a bottom tool out of 2 or 3 pieces of iron or steel was the fast way in a village or country shop. Doing a massive upset to form say a 2" square block on top of a 1" stem to form a bottom swage is a lot of work for a striker, its much easier to jump weld on a stem and face it with steel. I have tooling that I have forged collars on to. Its a 2 or 3 heat operation in a coal forge and can be accomplished with a hand hammer. Its a lot less work than upsetting a squared up old axle into the hardie hole of your anvil with a sledge hammer. This is how I had to do it I before I got a power hammer or a good welding machine.

[David E.]

Slightly off topic, I went to look at an anvil today 280 lbs with an 1" 5/8th hardy hole, biggest I've seen, lands either side were about 2" wide. It made the tail look a bit fragile. Decent enough anvil, but I do not fancy having to re-make my hardy tools.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

OK, Alright! I will accept the history lesson, now let's get back to reality!

David: Nice thing about a big hardy hole is being able to knock big drifts through. If you have a lot of hardy tools, just make a bushing.

[Tom Allyn]

Decent enough anvil, but I do not fancy having to re-make my hardy tools.

Can you sleeve it?

[Timothy Miller]

Sleeves work but because they are normally thin steel they tend to wear out under heavy use. There is no substitute for a well made tool that fits the anvil you are using in a professional setting. You can fudge it if it is only for a small job or your doing it for fun. But if you want your work to turn out clean and have it look how you visualized it in your head you need tooling that is correct shape and finish. It should not be moving around every time you strike a blow or be poorly shaped. I can't tell you how many times I have gone into shops and blacksmith schools and the tooling that is being used is improvised junk. Often times it is arc welded up or reforged cast off tooling that has been made to work. This sends the wrong message to students I can see it carries through with many more advanced smiths too. Well made tooling makes good work possible makes the smith more productive and facilitates a atmosphere of good craftsmanship.

[Frank Turley]

I can only say that I have made a number of 1 1/8" shanked tools in my 250# Trenton. I neck down on the power hammer and hand forge until I get close. On the old, forged anvils, The internal corners of the hardie hole are not always sharp, so it helps to chamfer the shank corners a bit while fitting. I use the anvil as a heading tool, and I sledge hammer the business end before shaping into the needed tool.

My Trenton is held fast to a box of sand with threaded rods and nuts going to two flat hold-down bars. Otherwise, I might get too much jumping and jiggling of the anvil base. The more central placement of the hardie hole on the Continental pattern anvils may give more rebound when sledging a tool and perhaps fewer heats.

When all is finished, there may be a tiny bit of slop of the shank in the hardie hole. It can be a result of shrinkage from a heat to room temperature.

I don't think loss of proper temper is a problem. Given that you did make the face a little softer, nobody does heavy forging around the periphery of the hardie hole, anyway.

[ThomasPowers]

Even as recently as the American Civil War *steel* could cost 5 times more than wrought iron did and so tended to be used sparingly. It was a common belief that wrought iron dealt with shock better and so some folks considered steel face tooling *better* that solid steel

I have some steel faced wrought iron tools found at fleamarkets that I still use---a couple of hammers, chisels, adz, drawknives etc.

[evfreek]

"The width of the lands" being 2" is probably not a huge concern, unless the hardy hold was torched out to make the larger one. I remember responding to a craigslist ad for an anvil with a "huge hardy hole". Yep, you got it. Small anvil with a (badly) torch enlarged hardy hole. No rebound anywhere near the modification.

The key dimension here is the thickness of the heel where the hardy borders the main body of the anvil. My big Hay Budden has plenty of meat here. My little fabricated anvil is in the danger zone (elastic) limit for a simple beam struck with a sledge hammer.

[monty]

as i am also guilty of making alecs anvil steam by forging in the hardy hole, i agree that it works well, and it didnt damage his anvil, so why not use it ?

[ThomasPowers]

"Steam" is fairly low temperature. As I recall we were preheating anvils for welding at nearly 400 degF as being around the tempering temp of it. As long as you are below the original tempering temperature you are not softening the face any!

[monty]

the tip of the horn was steaming too, but point taken!