new tools

[FieryFurnace]

I've been pestering the junk yard guy about getting me some coil springs lately. I really need some before I go to JCC this next week. He seems perfectly fine with "getting them tomorrow." That is, the last three times I asked him.

So yesterday I went by the antique store to see if by any chance they had one laying around. If you want plow points, that is the place to go, but no coil springs. Since I was there anyway, I decided to see if they had a sledge hammer head. I've been wanting about a 10-12 pounder for a striking hammer but haven't forked out the $30 for a fiberglass handled one at Lowes.
I was in luck! He had a 10 pound, vertical peen, sledge for $5.00. A little sanding/grinding, and it's good as new.





(Little chip on the corner there but I don't think it will be too much of a problem.)




He also had a tap and die set, and this is where I don't know if I did good or not. There is a lot of stuff in the set and a lot of them seem sharp but this is not my area of expertise. I've still got to clean these up.










I'm really not sure about this. I spent $25 which seemed reasonable if there is some useable stuff in there. There aren't any manufacturer names that I can see, but it does say made in USA. (I hope that's good!) I'm not really an impulse buyer most of the time. That was one of those times where one of those internet phones would be handy so I could look up the old tap and die thread. Anyway, from what you can see what do you think? What should I look for to determine if these are decent? Or should I find the correct size rod and just try some of them out. (Thanks to "spears" I have the sizing chart)

I'm going to soak them in mineral spirits and then wire wheel them. They are a bit grimy but not too rusty which is a good thing I guess.
Thoughts???

[Don A]

That last piece looks like an easy-out (or whatever it's called) to remove bolts that have a rounded or broken head. You use a correctly sized bit to drill into the broken bolt/screw, then put the easy-out in the hole and remove the bolt/screw. This one is for a regular right-handed bolt. You will notice the theads are opposite so it will bite when you turn it "lefty-loosey".

I have read some about acid sharpening file (muratic, I think... you can do some searches on it). This might help you with your taps.

Looks like a good haul for $25

[pkrankow]

Don't use a wire wheel on the taps and dies. If they were good they will be dull when you are done. Soaking is OK, use a nylon brush and see if it is funk on them or rust. They have a good chance of having some service left in the taps and dies because the oily dust would protect the surface from rust.

When I need one of Grandpa's taps or dies I oil it and use it, if it is good the cutting will clean it, if it is damaged then it won't work.

Phil

[Fosterob]

I second what Phil said. Must reenforce NO WIRE WHEEL. Even if they are dull keep them for chasing (cleaning) rusty threads so you dont wear out sharp ones doing it. I would oil and leave them alone.
Rob

[petere76]

A suggestion for spring steel. Try "spring' or suspension service centers for vehicles.

I hit the local spring place for scrap occasionaly. They always have a pile of old spring steel out back. Large dia coil springs tend to be in short supply because truck suspensions don't use as much coil as they did in the past. However, the old scrap is still out there and can be had for short money.

Good luck with your hunting.

Peter

[HWHII]

Looks like you did score. The tap and die set looks like a nice old one, the hammer head is cool too.

[ThomasPowers]

I'm with Fosterob; always a good thing to have a set of taps and dies for old thread clean-up use; but you may want to be careful about new use as it's a "pain" when you break a tap in a hole in a project you are trying to get out the door!

I'd smooth out that chip in the hammer head too, a smooth dimple is easy to hammer over where as a sharp one may lead to cold shuts.

[ianinsa]

I can only concur with all the above, now you need a thread gauge- usually not too expensive but worth its weight in gold. Tapping a thread with a 'whithorth' tap when it should have been a metric fine is a serious pain in the you know what. Nice score though.

Ian

[MLMartin]

Like before said NO WIRE WHEEL never take a wire wheel to any blade or point that you want to cut with. Also a wire wheel will snatch those taps right out of your hand and fling them who knows where in your shop!

[mike-hr]

When I want to tap a new thread, I hunt through the assortment until I find one that will cut my thumbnail when I rotate the tap across it. I've bought an occasional tap at the big box-mart store on weekends when the industrial house was closed. Cheap new taps won't cut my thumbnail, and I get nervous.

[FieryFurnace]

Thanks for all of the info! You guys are always so great and I really do appreciate it.

I let the taps and dies set in mineral spirits all day and took them out this evening. As suggested, I abstained from wire wheeling anything.

AND FOR THE BIG NEWS! I "tapped and died sumthin'."

I got to looking at them and I saw a die that said "3/8x24." So self says I, I wonder if I could thread a plain 3/8" rod with a 3/8"x24 die.

So I went out on a limb and tried it....and it WORKED! Then I looked through the taps and found a 3/8"x24 tap, looked through the chart until I found the drill bit size I needed, then I looked through the drill bit box until I found the drill bit, and before long I had a corresponding "nut" of sorts.

I used a tractor gear oil to help lube although I'm sure there are some better cutting fluids out there. Both the tap and die cut super easy. I went around about a half to a full turn and then backed off a bit, and just kept doing that.

Anyway, I was excited. So now I'm an official tapper and dier!

[clinton]

I can only concur with all the above, now you need a thread gauge- usually not too expensive but worth its weight in gold. Tapping a thread with a 'whithorth' tap when it should have been a metric fine is a serious pain in the you know what. Nice score though.

Ian

We only get the Whitworth on the old Triumph stuff up here as far as I know- and yes it is a pain, close but no cigar

[John B]

There you go Dave, another skill in the blacksmiths craft started.

I would also suggest that you make a simple rack to hold your taps, and drills (block of wood with holes drilled part way through the shank size of the taps and drills) so they don't keep knocking together when in the box, like files and all cutting tools, help preserve the cutting edges.

Also makes it easier to find when required.

[Mainely,Bob]

The only type of brush I take to taps and dies is a hand type brass brush to scrub them with. If you find a tap or die that isn`t as sharp as it could be then go to the nearest hardware store and look for a tapered or cylindrical diamond hone. The fishing tackle shops up here also carry them sometimes. Use that hone only in the flutes of the taps and the round hollows of the dies to sharpen up the faces of the cutting edges. I`ve used this trick many times to keep a tap or die going in order to finish a job.
BTW David,you never did email me your address so I could send you some of my extras. If you find some of your set are completely shelled out let me know which ones they are and I`ll paw thru what I have.

I find that if I soak rusty taps and dies in acid to sharpen them the rust becomes pits and then the the pitted faces usually break more easily and tear out the threads. I found honing to be more successful,YMMV.

[FieryFurnace]

Yes sir! I was thinking about that just the other day. All the bits are from the cheap titanium sets and they are in a plastic box with a half a dozen drill bits in each section. (I only keep the nice bits in 3/16, 1/4, and 3/8.) Time to start collecting the hard metal bits in all sizes it seems! That should be cheap!

[pkrankow]

Yes sir! I was thinking about that just the other day. All the bits are from the cheap titanium sets and they are in a plastic box with a half a dozen drill bits in each section. (I only keep the nice bits in 3/16, 1/4, and 3/8.) Time to start collecting the hard metal bits in all sizes it seems! That should be cheap!

When you expect to need them, order 10 bits of that size. You may also want to order extra taps and dies of these sizes. Only order the sizes you need. I would consider ordering right away for tapping 1/4-20 (#7drill) and 3/8 (5/16 drill) and possibly 1/2-13 (27/64 drill) (if the chart I read is right, and I read it right) If you can't do it with these three sizes then you are doing something specialized, or replicating someone else's work! Order the sizes when you are ready to use them. No need to buy the whole shooting match to find you only use 3 bits.

This doesn't mean to just stick to these sizes, but choose what you are going to work with based on the scale of your projects.

Phil

[MLMartin]

One little tip to make taps and dies last longer is to remove any scale on the metal before use. When taking a die to raw bar take the time to remove the mill scale if there is any. If you are using cold rolled steel there is not scale, but if your using hot rolled steel there will be mill scale, or if you just forged something there will be scale. Scale is vary hard, if you can remove it before you file or use a tap & die they will last longer.

For forged work that needs filing or use of die I often just take it to a wire wheel on a grinder first, or lightly sand the scale off with a sander.

[Dodge]

Dunno where I read it but they said the best cutting oil was kerosene! Its thin so shavings don't stick in it and interfere with cutting and it also acts as a coolant of sorts. Ive used it with great results tapping, at the drill press up to 1/2" and even the mini lathe! I'm sure it has limits when used for drilling but it works great for tapping :)

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Kerosene is suggested for threading aluminum.

For steel I loved using 1,1,1 Trichlor worked like magic! It used to be in Tap Magic till the enviros got to them. I had a couple of gallons at one time.

At work I use the same cutting oil in the CNC machines we have, but any thicker oil really will do the job. In a pinch I have used some brake cleaners -the flammable ones usually work best. It is similar to 1,1,1, in how it works.

[John McPherson]

A set of small jeweler's files, and woodcarver's hones and stones in various shapes is a handy thing to have, as is a set of magnifying lenses or high power reading glasses to see just what is going on at the cutting edges.

Lard, kerosene, diesel, any oil or grease will work in a pinch. I bought a gallon can of WD-40 marked down to $5 on clearance, and keep a spray bottle on the bench for any random shop task not worth searching for the ideal solution.

IIRC, someone once mentioned that on products that had to meet NSF food grade standards, his company bought and used Crisco by the pallet for tap and punch lube.

Anvilfire daily funnys had an amusing story about using condensed milk as a drilling lube in a machine shop. It comes back around periodically.

[Swamptroll]

For copper forming taps with heavy pressure lube work the best. Be sure to use the proper tap drill for these as they are a different size than for taps that cut.

[FieryFurnace]

Dunno where I read it but they said the best cutting oil was kerosene!

"So man I was so sorry to hear about your shop. How did it catch fire?"

"Oh I was just threading some bolts and woosh!"

LOL
Actually that is more likely to happen to my blacksmith friend who insists on starting forge fires with kerosine soaked corn cobs.

I may try it for tap lube but nor for fire starting.


OK you guys are talking about ordering drill bits. Where do you order them from? Right now I'm getting "hard metal" drill bits from TSC. 3/16 bit costs $2, and that is the best price I've found local. Lowes and Ace were higher.
Can I get them cheaper somewhere by buying a dozen or so a time?

[Spears]

Hello Dave,

More importantly than the price is the fact that you have a little bit more to work with.

The list of high tech cutting and tapping fluids is a mile long and for most work done in a Blacksmith shop they’re way overkill. When tapping just a few holes in low carbon steel, just about any oil will drastically reduce friction between the tap and work piece.

I would use Crisco before I stuffed a tap into a hole dry. Just because dry cutting leaves a bad finish and severely takes life out of those sharp cutting edges which will cause excessive “drag” and cutting pressures which can cause the tap or die to break.

CNC shops are concerned with tool life for hundreds of tapped holes in expensive alloys and forever +1 day could be spent talking about what works best. It wont matter much between 10W40 or Marvel Mystery oil when all we want to do down on the farm is tap a couple of holes in a piece of angle iron. Hence, “put a little oil on it” and try to never tap dry.

It takes a close up view of the cutting edges of a tap to truly tell how used or dull it is. A dull tool will be revealed in the event of “excessive effort required” because the tap or die is rubbing not cutting. Not to mention bad finish even using lubricant. Compare some of those old taps with some of those new ones I gave you under a magnifying glass and examine the differences. They should feel different also.

Just be sure to clean or burn the oil off if you’re going to apply a clear coat so you end up having good adhesion with your chosen finish around the threaded area. Good luck. Spears.

[FieryFurnace]

Thanks for the advice Mr. Spears.

So I took enventory today to see what I really have. I had to take a wire wheel to the taps and dies but I just did it on the shafts and kept it away from any cutting edges.

Ok so for taps these are the sizes and numbers that I have now.

three of 4-40, three of 6-32, three of 8-32, three of 10-32, 3/16-32, 3/16-24, 1/4-28, four of 1/4-20, five of 5/16x18, 5/16x24, four of 3/8x16, two of 3/8x24, 7/16x20, 1/2x20, four of 1/2x13, 5/8x18, 5/8x11, and three unmarked


Ok now for dies this is what I have.

6-32, 10-24, two of 1/4-20, 1/4-28, two of 5/16-18, 5/16-24, three of 3/8-16, 3/8-24, two of 7/16-20, 7/16-14, 1/2-20, 1/2-13, one unknown.

Of all of those I have several different brands: Ace, Columbia, Handy, and Bluegrass

Of all of those, I don't know how many are really any good. They all look about the same and the one I used seemed to cut easily. I have not compared them to the new ones Mr. Spears gave me, but I'll do that soon.

Does anyone know the quality level of those name brands?

[pkrankow]

Ace is a popular hardware store brand. I would call it a better generic, but not a highest quality tool. It gets the job done. I prefer Ace as a brand over HF.

If kerosene is too stinky, use paraffin lamp oil. It is a grade of kerosene that has very few aromatic volatiles. Truth is that all these petroleum based lubricants are quite flammable and have to be well respected in a shop that works with fire.

I agree for hand tapping it matters little what lubricant you use, as long as you lube it. I prefer liquid lubricants, but enough people have mentioned Crisco that I will try it next time I need to tap. I already have a small can for metal finishing, so I guess I can use that.

Phil