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I Forge Iron

Forge welding - how to


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Good demo! I always thought sparks meant you were too hot? I know for true wrought you need a higher heat, but do you really want sparks flying off your iron when you weld? Apparently it works for Simon so i guess i am talking about a moot point. Thanks for the post.
Brian

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Great video! Wish I'd seen it sooner! I just started playing around with forge welding. Once you get the timing down it's just a matter of sticking with it. No pun intended. Two out of three welds done this way have worked well for me! Remember to wait a moment after the sparks start. I think that's what went wrong my second time.


WARNING HUGE IMAGES

This is my third:
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My first forge welding project:
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Thanks for sharing and giving me an opportunity to project my project progress with the community. -Greg D. Price

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My understanding is that British smiths typically don't use flux. Personally, I would think that it would be better for beginners to use flux, perhaps moving on to not using flux, if desired, once they are more proficient. The more things working in your favour the better, at least while learning.

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I guess I am using the wrong style hammer to get good forge welds. I should switch to a ball pein hammer. (grin)

I've been meaning to add a heavier ball pein to my collection. Would the impact centered better squirt out the impurities like flux than a flat faced hammer?.
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If you have ever done any gas (ox/ac) welding, you bring the left side and the right side of the metal up to welding heat (almost liquid), then add the filler rod and a little heat to liquify all 3 metals and form the weld. You then keep the puddle going to weld the two pieces of metal together. Electric arc welding is much the same, two pieces of metal and add filler rod to the liquid puddle to form the weld.

I watched Billy Merrett weld a damascus billet of maybe 1-1/4 inches thick. He had a broken hammer handle (the wooden handle part) floating the slack tub. He brought the hot billet out of the fire, laid it on the anvil, and hit it with the end of the wooden handle. He explained that you did not want to squirt your weld to all corners of the shop, you wanted the metal to make contact, mix, and form the weld.

The scarf is formed so that when pressure is applied to the metal, any impurities are moved to the side and outside the weld zone.

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If you have ever done any gas (ox/ac) welding, you bring the left side and the right side of the metal up to welding heat (almost liquid), then add the filler rod and a little heat to liquify all 3 metals and form the weld. You then keep the puddle going to weld the two pieces of metal together. Electric arc welding is much the same, two pieces of metal and add filler rod to the liquid puddle to form the weld.

Great examples of the type of research that has gone into fluxes from bone ash to fluxed rods and wires and shielding gas mixtures. I save my scale flakes, Charcoal dust and file dust as I've heard they're useful. I'll leave the bone thing to the pro's. :P From what I understand scale comes from contact with air. Most fluxes just prevent that. It can also be done if all the atmosphere around the work piece is burning like a scaled up scarf I suppose.



The scarf is formed so that when pressure is applied to the metal, any impurities are moved to the side and outside the weld zone.

From what I've learned from doing it wrong a few times and please correct me if I'm wrong.. (if anyone wants a few pictures of probably common mistakes made in scarfing I've saved some - pm me)... The material you roll over onto the piece you sit on the anvil (a giant heat-sink)has to hold it's self securely while you reach for a hammer. Try this part out before hand.
If the scarfs don't heat up to temperature/melt/spark at the same time ask yourself these questions the answers could be helpful:
  1. Where they both in the same fire or part of the fire?
  2. Are the pieces to be welded the same size?
  3. When flux was applied did one piece cool more than the other.

From what I understand scale comes from contact with air. Most fluxes just prevent that. It can also be done with by just insure all the atmosphere around the work piece is burning.


I watched Billy Merrett weld a damascus billet of maybe 1-1/4 inches thick. He had a broken hammer handle (the wooden handle part) floating the slack tub. He brought the hot billet out of the fire, laid it on the anvil, and hit it with the end of the wooden handle. He explained that you did not want to squirt your weld to all corners of the shop, you wanted the metal to make contact, mix, and form the weld.
:D He's a talented dude.
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Thanks for the video!

I do have a few of questions. One would be like some have asked already no flux. I have seen some Brits demo and this seem to be common. Also, no wire brushing? Last, I have heard that most Brits and European smith's use coke instead of green coal. Is this the difference, maybe a hotter fire with less impurities, so no need for flux or wire brushing?

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You are not welding in a green coal fire; you are welding in a coke fire surrounded by green coal---if you raked all the green coal out and just used the coke you have created it would work just as well. If you have green coal in the "working area" of the fire you are not doing it right!

Sparks: sparking is a good temperature indicator for working with mild steel and the milder the more sparking is OK. For high carbon steels sparking is really too hot. Remember that we are NOT melting the metal. Forge welding is a solid phase welding technique, may I commend to your attention "Solid Phase Welding of Metals", Tylecote.

Now you do want the scale/crud to be molten and to get out of the way of having the clean metal surfaces come in contact. Flux helps this; especially when you are welding up high alloy steels where the oxides are quite refractory... Shape of the welding scarf helps too---designing it so the middles touch first and push the crud out of the joint helps a lot!

Some folks make a big thing out of fluxless welding; but far better to have a good weld using flux than a poor one not using it IMNSHO! Since I generally weld up billets starting with many thin layers I use flux unashamedly. When I weld wrought iron I may not use flux as it's already "pre-fluxed" as the metal silicates it contains works as a flux.

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Its a good video .
I wouldn't consider a scarf weld to be a butt weld though, to me a butt weld joins end to end.
the scarfing of the joint helps to blend the thinning edges into the bar , it helps to prevent the edge of one piece cutting into another .
re flux and sparks et al.
when welding up wrought iron or mild steel the sparking of the iron doesn't really screew up the metal , the hotter you get it the easier it welds , you do lose material to the fire but as long as you account for that lost material in your weld prep as in this video it isn't really a problem.At these high welding temps you really don't need flux at all you are past the melting point of the iron oxide on the surface of your material so why use flux .
Regarding wire brushing , by the time your sparking metal is out of the fire any wire brushing you did pre heating is redundant .
Forge welding is not one of those one technique fits all kind of gigs and welding mild and wrought iron at high temp without flux is just as easy as using flux to do the same job , with the added advantage of being simpler.
I weld up carbon steel with flux , but avoid it when working wrought and mild in a coke forge as its nasty stuff and not needed in that application.

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thanks john great clear demo - im just not getting it hot enough - have been getting inconsistent success, but have not left it in as long as that:) thanks!


Not down to me Beth, Thanks to Simon and his son for making it and putting it out there, he felt there was a need for it. Flower course at Westpoint this weekend if you are interested
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Looking at that video makes me wonder why I MIG weld my scroll work together. The time cutting and prepping the joint then welding, it then grinding the weld, it actually seems like more work than the traditional way. Mig welding and grinding uses more expensive consumables too. usually I forge weld only when there is no other way to do it and have it look right. Things like hinge barrels, fire place cranes and other very traditional stuff. I was always told not to do it that way because it was too time consuming and too hard. I spent all day forge welding the other day on a group of gate latches I was making. I was making the shop rate and enjoying the work very much It makes me wonder why these skills were abandoned and why there is this mentality that a waste of time. It leads me to think Its really about the having the skills not that its inefficient. It kind of makes me feel like I have been mislead.

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southshore - i totally agree - i would personally love to perfect this skill becasue i get so bored of using a grinder etc and its so much more efficient to get the weld done right there and then in the fire. i dont spend enough time practising tho... find the white heat hurts my eyes ( big baby!) seriously it really does!

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southshore - i totally agree - i would personally love to perfect this skill becasue i get so bored of using a grinder etc and its so much more efficient to get the weld done right there and then in the fire. i dont spend enough time practising tho... find the white heat hurts my eyes ( big baby!) seriously it really does!


Try oxy/acet welding glasses Beth
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Looking at that video makes me wonder why I MIG weld my scroll work together. The time cutting and prepping the joint then welding, it then grinding the weld, it actually seems like more work than the traditional way. Mig welding and grinding uses more expensive consumables too. usually I forge weld only when there is no other way to do it and have it look right. Things like hinge barrels, fire place cranes and other very traditional stuff. I was always told not to do it that way because it was too time consuming and too hard. I spent all day forge welding the other day on a group of gate latches I was making. I was making the shop rate and enjoying the work very much It makes me wonder why these skills were abandoned and why there is this mentality that a waste of time. It leads me to think Its really about the having the skills not that its inefficient. It kind of makes me feel like I have been mislead.



Definately you have been misled, these skills are not abandoned just not learnt properly for various reasons,(probably because it seems to be an easier option for those not willing to take the time to learn the skills)

It takes longer to mimic traditional forge welded items by 'modern methods'than to actually do them properly.

If you go to the Devon County Show pics in the Groups gallery. Blacksmiths Guild UK most of the candlehlders were made in less than 2 hrs and forge welds abound.
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Wow, those are some nice looking welds. Mine always have flux boogers all over them. When I get the metal that sparkly, it always looks lumpy and, well, burned. Does hammering it get rid of that?

I was impressed with the welds, then went to John's web site, and became even more impressed! Mistake was letting the wife look at the pictures!

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