Forge welding - how to

[Timothy Miller]

Lets say a highly skilled and trained blacksmith were to walk into the average ornamental iron shop in the US that even had a forge and applied for a got a job. On your first day you walk in and started forging out scrolls then began to forge weld them together they would most likely ask you to stop. They would tell you to Mig it together. You would be labeled a purist and pressured to doing things the "fast way". And if you persisted you most likely be let go. I can point out more than a few blacksmiths that feel this way as well. Many American tradespeople want to use a machine to do the job when ever possible the more the better. They want to have the job take the least possible physical and mental effort even if its slower. Many "fabricators" think forging is the slowest possible way of doing any given job. The guy who does my water jet cutting a former fab shop owner thinks I'm nuts and that I live in the stone age or something. He is not the only one I have met that feels this way. When I explained to him that I have a power hammer, gas forge and press to help me out and that I got large contracts (that I wasn't playing around) he sort of got a look of confusion and embarrassment. Many american blacksmiths began in welding shops and got there first training there. They have to muddle along learning by trial and error taking a class here or there and reading things from books or the internet. They make up their own ways of doing things. We end up with huge blind spots in out knowledge. I had a blacksmith who had worked for me with 30 years of experience who did not really know how to forge weld and never had made a pair of tongs.

[John B]

Wow, those are some nice looking welds. Mine always have flux boogers all over them. When I get the metal that sparkly, it always looks lumpy and, well, burned. Does hammering it get rid of that?

I was impressed with the welds, then went to John's web site, and became even more impressed! Mistake was letting the wife look at the pictures!

That would be the Guild's website, (I don't have a personal website) has pictures from many members on there, so I can't take credit for all of them.

If you are using flux, you don't need to get the material that sparkly but let it soak at just before sparkly, maybe one or two sparks, then shut down blast for a steady count of 5 to 10 and then try. you may have to try a few times to get the count number right for you.

Hammering and flattering will give a smoothed finish, just dont go too far and thin the weld area down too much, it should be equal size all way along, blending in smoothly.

Have fun playing, and try it without the flux, you may surprise yourself

[Maillemaker]

Ahhhh.....

See, I had thought that the scarfed ends fit together like this

IIIIIIIIII/ /IIIIIIIIIII

Although, it makes sense to have them like

IIIIIIIIIIII\
......\IIIIIIIIIIIII

because it gives you more iron to work with.

Does the same theory apply to welding chain links?

[John B]

Lets say a highly skilled and trained blacksmith were to walk into the average ornamental iron shop in the US that even had a forge and applied for a got a job. On your first day you walk in and started forging out scrolls then began to forge weld them together they would most likely ask you to stop. They would tell you to Mig it together. You would be labeled a purist and pressured to doing things the "fast way". And if you persisted you most likely be let go. I can point out more than a few blacksmiths that feel this way as well. Many American tradespeople want to use a machine to do the job when ever possible the more the better. They want to have the job take the least possible physical and mental effort even if its slower. Many "fabricators" think forging is the slowest possible way of doing any given job. The guy who does my water jet cutting a former fab shop owner thinks I'm nuts and that I live in the stone age or something. He is not the only one I have met that feels this way. When I explained to him that I have a power hammer, gas forge and press to help me out and that I got large contracts (that I wasn't playing around) he sort of got a look of confusion and embarrassment. Many american blacksmiths began in welding shops and got there first training there. They have to muddle along learning by trial and error taking a class here or there and reading things from books or the internet. They make up their own ways of doing things. We end up with huge blind spots in out knowledge. I had a blacksmith who had worked for me with 30 years of experience who did not really know how to forge weld and never had made a pair of tongs.

Their loss, and you have my sympathy, there are ways of showing traditional methods are quicker than modern ones,

Their easy way is not always the quickest, sometimes it takes longer to set up their 'machinery' than you would take to complete the task, (Try punching a hole as opposed to drilling one) and it doesn't have to be 'hard work' just because you are forging in the traditional way, it's what you make it.

There are Blacksmiths and people calling themselves 'blacksmiths', unfortunately there are no specified international (or UK) standards for recognition of a "qualified" blacksmith, and I doubt there ever will be a satisfactory one created, unlike when we had indentured apprentices and the system of going through to Journeyman, and on to Master Blacksmith, but that's progress or so I am told.

All I can say is our Guild and members are doing what we can to try and keep the training for traditional methods accessible for those who really want to learn them and promoting the blacksmiths craft wherever and whenever we can.

[John B]

Yes just notch/step the ends slightly, then overlap them and forge them in

[Drewed]

....
All I can say is our Guild and members are doing what we can to try and keep the training for traditional methods accessible for those who really want to learn them and promoting the blacksmiths craft wherever and whenever we can.

Makes me want to move to the UK!

I was "taught" to make a notch and scarf so that they sort of key into each other.

|||||||||/\/
......../\/||||||

If that make any sense. That way they sort of hold on when you drop the tongs and fumble for the hammer!

I'm going to try sans flux and see what happens.

[ironclad]

going to have to try this, i always thought the short bit was welded to a long piece! now i know better!!! Instead of just two pieces you use three!! thanks for the vid.

[John B]

That's appropriate for a drop tongs weld or other welds, previously we discussed chain links, which do not necessarily need such a preparation.

[Francis Trez Cole]

for myself I would have done it the other way around with the tong hand holding the other piece down that you drop nothing just let go and pick up your hammer. we all work differently

[Frank Turley]

In the UK, they have access to something called "breeze" which I'm told is a high quality coke, and that it helps to a degree, when welding.

Francis Whitaker said words to the effect that if your scarf setup and scarfs are properly made and all else being equal, you'll likely get the weld. Personally, I follow the line drawings of scarfs that are shown in two old books. Schwarzkopf has a good chapter on forge welding in "Plain and Ornamental Forging." That book was reprinted in 2000. Another book, unfortunately out of print, is by Harcourt, "Elementary Forge Practice." Harcourt has careful drawings of several types of scarfs, very well done.

I just returned from demonstrating at Blacksmith Days in Central Maryland and also, four days at Yesteryear School in Virginia. I must've done about 20 forge welds in all, and they were done in front of an audience. I got 'em all.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

[yesteryearforge]

IT was a GREAT class Frank
Most said it may have been the best class that they had ever taken.
Maybe we can get another one together in the future.

Mike Tanner
Yesteryear Forge
Yesteryear School of Blacksmithing

[thingmaker3]

Another book, unfortunately out of print, is by Harcourt, "Elementary Forge Practice." Harcourt has careful drawings of several types of scarfs, very well done.

pdf version of Harcourt's book (copyright expired) is available here: http://www.wkfinetools.com/tMaking/z_reading/1920-Elementary_Forge_Practice-Harcourt/1920-Elementary_Forge_Practice-Harcourt-ne.pdf

[freeman]

This video is brilliant. I think I learned more from watching it and then going out to the forge and practicing for an hour than I did from a couple days of tinkering. Flux-free forge weld, check!

[Junksmith]

Speaking of flux, I can't seem to get it in my head when to add it. When the metal is in the fire? If you do it before it goes in, it just falls off and I assume that after it's at weld heat it would be too late as the atmospheric contamination would already be occurring. Maybe pull out and flux before welding heat? I always seem to miss that part!

[Frank Turley]

I don't think that the demonstrator in the video is using flux. I do use flux. I usually put on borax followed by E-Z Weld compound on top of the glazed borax. The borax gets a little tacky, so that it helps hold the E-Z in place. Another flux I have used is Black Magic sold by Jonathan Nedbor of Canal Forge, New York. Sometimes, borax works by itself without the addition of other fluxes. The fluxes are applied when the steel is at an orange or lemon heat. You want the borax to melt and glaze right away. Many smiths in the U.S. and overseas wire brush before fluxing.

Regarding how to flux, the wire brushing and fluxing before placing in the fire is common in the U.S. Another way is to spoon the flux on while the piece is already hot in a coal forge. An old film from Cxechoslovakia showed an old timer throwing a small handful of flux on top of the middle of the fire; he didn't seem too concerned.

When the piece or pieces come from the fire at a welding heat, they are often shaken in midair or rapped on the anvil to knock some of the 'soup' off. You will be quickly getting rid of the compound of molten scale and flux which will fall on the floor. The weld takes place after that.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

[pkrankow]

Frank,
I just looked at Harcourt "Elementary Forge Practice" (it is available as a PDF file, sorry, no link today) and in exercise 8 plate VIII (Pg 49 in the text, 55 in the PDF) it has an excellent line drawing...showing something rather different from the video. The video shows a similar upset, and about an inch of material overlapped with the formed scarf surfaces away from the weld, while the book shows the scarfs meeting each other. It seems that the larger area used in the video would make setting the weld easier, as I have been unable to stick a weld as described in Harcourt (I am sure my lack of forge time is part of this too).

Is this difference just a change of technique or is there a reason to take one approach or the other?

Phil

[Drewed]

Speaking of flux, I can't seem to get it in my head when to add it. When the metal is in the fire? If you do it before it goes in, it just falls off and I assume that after it's at weld heat it would be too late as the atmospheric contamination would already be occurring. Maybe pull out and flux before welding heat? I always seem to miss that part!

When I forge weld and use flux ( the way I was tought, but I'm going to try flux-less!) You build a little "cave" or "oven" in the coal. This leaves a little room about your piece for adding flux and watching the colors. I made a fluxing spoon out of 1/4 rod. Just hammer the heck out of one end and dish the flat part slightly ( I beat mine while hot on a hunk of wood.) This long handled spoon allows me to dump a small amount of flux - about a tea spoon worth on the metal while it is still in the fire. No removal- no air - no scale!

I add the flux just after cherry heat. It will kind of stick then melt.

[Frank Turley]

Frank,
I just looked at Harcourt "Elementary Forge Practice" (it is available as a PDF file, sorry, no link today) and in exercise 8 plate VIII (Pg 49 in the text, 55 in the PDF) it has an excellent line drawing...showing something rather different from the video. The video shows a similar upset, and about an inch of material overlapped with the formed scarf surfaces away from the weld, while the book shows the scarfs meeting each other. It seems that the larger area used in the video would make setting the weld easier, as I have been unable to stick a weld as described in Harcourt (I am sure my lack of forge time is part of this too).

Is this difference just a change of technique or is there a reason to take one approach or the other?

Phil

Phil,
I have been forge welding for 48 years. Simon's scarfs are sort of upside down from the way I lap them. The faces of the scarfs that mate should be crowned (radiused) slightly so that when they meet, any remaining 'soup' will be squeezed out. Harcourt's drawings show the crowning on flat stock from before to behind. On square or round stock, the scarf can also be crowned a little from side to side. As an example, point your thumbs toward each other and place the thumb prints together. The rounding is in all directions. The surfaces are not molten; you are "solid phase welding," sometimes called "solid state welding" in the current technical literature. The only thing molten is scale and flux. If flux is not used, the bright welding heat will melt some of the scale. I think it helps to tap the pieces on the anvil or shake them in midair to knock some of the scale/flux compound onto the floor; then lap and weld.

For upsetting, heat the bar at the edge of the coal fire to get a short heat. The length of the upsetting heat should be about 2½ times stock thickness to keep the stock from bending unduly. If the heat is too long, it can be quickly cooled with water. With the undesirable long heat, you'll be doing more bending and straightening than upsetting. The upset end should be at least 1¼ times the parent stock thickness. If you are a beginner, perhaps 1½ times.

A sparking heat is the incipient burning range. You do not want a HUGE shower of sparks or you will be burning the steel. If all is extremely clean, you can weld without sparks, what we sometimes call a sweating heat. It is a good welding heat, the only disadvantage being that it doesn't last quite as long as a sparking heat. It is easier to get a sweating heat weld, if flux is used. If laying high carbon steel into a low carbon steel tool, such as say, with a hatchet, it is always welded at a sweating heat, because the high carbon steel will crack and crumble at a sparking heat.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

[thingmaker3]

I thought they had discontinued it, but (according to the update on their website) Lindsay Books does still carry Harcourt reprints.

[John B]

Frank,
I just looked at Harcourt "Elementary Forge Practice" (it is available as a PDF file, sorry, no link today) and in exercise 8 plate VIII (Pg 49 in the text, 55 in the PDF) it has an excellent line drawing...showing something rather different from the video. The video shows a similar upset, and about an inch of material overlapped with the formed scarf surfaces away from the weld, while the book shows the scarfs meeting each other. It seems that the larger area used in the video would make setting the weld easier, as I have been unable to stick a weld as described in Harcourt (I am sure my lack of forge time is part of this too).

Is this difference just a change of technique or is there a reason to take one approach or the other?

Phil

Harcourt's book does not differentiate between wrought iron or mild steel in preparing scarfs, so basically whilst theory may remain similar, practically methods have changed/adapted to suit the materials.

Simon's method works for him, and is a proceedure commonly used by many other smith's here in the UK.

One of the problems with the scarfs illustrated in the book is placement, there are no 'location' points on the method illustrated, and also there may be a tendency for the joint to slip as you drop tongs or relieve pressure as you switch to the hammering sequence, (one way to avoid this is to put a series of indentations using the corner of the face of the hammer to create 'keys' to grip or resist sliding when they are placed together down the face of the scarf) whereas when you step the scarf, this gives a positive location, you do not need a long scarf to successfully join them,, and too thin on the scarf end will also give problems.

Play and have fun, if you practice you will get it, just think what you are doing and where it goes wrong, then you are well on the way to getting it right.

[Junksmith]

Thank you Frank and Drewed. I figured it was something like that and the borax definitely sticks better when the metal is semi hot. Sounds like I need more practice! :P

[Drewed]

Thank you Frank and Drewed. I figured it was something like that and the borax definitely sticks better when the metal is semi hot. Sounds like I need more practice!

Aw shucks! more time at the forge! It really is easier to do than say. Just get a screaming hot fire, pull the metal before it turns into clinkers and move fast. Try it with a lighter hammer. You need speed to forge weld, not power. for 1/2" and under I use a normal sized ball peen hammer - think about the same weight as a standard claw hammer. Blowing flaming molten metal all over the place looks really cool, and makes for a great photo op, but it moves the metal too much. You want to just squirt the liquid slag and flux out the sides, not send it into the neighbors yard! Once its stuck - and you may feel it stick before you hammer it, then you can bring out the guns on the next heat to clean it up.

[kcrucible]

Speaking of flux, I can't seem to get it in my head when to add it. When the metal is in the fire? If you do it before it goes in, it just falls off and I assume that after it's at weld heat it would be too late as the atmospheric contamination would already be occurring. Maybe pull out and flux before welding heat? I always seem to miss that part!

Haven't done any iron forging and/or fluxing yet, but if I remember correctly silversmiths make a borax spray. The water evaporates on hitting the hot item, depositing a coat of fine borax over the surface. Not sure why that wouldn't work here. this technique is called "pripp's flux"


http://users.lmi.net/~drewid/PWR_Pripps.html

[pete46]

I guess the Britts are like bumblebees;they don't know that ain't gonna fly without flux! :D

[K. Bryan Morgan]

A first for me today. A forge weld. This thread inspired me to give it a try. Some older friends of my girlfiends son came over. They are getting into making knives. Purely as a hobby. And we got a nice four hour long hammer session in today. It sure was fun. Anyway, one of them wanted to make a three prong whalers harpoon like he had seen on the coast. We used a piece of grade 60 rebar and a piece of mild 3/8" round for the center. Scarfed the 3/8" then hammered into the "U" shaped rebar tines, cold, to make the scarf for that. We did use flux, put everything into the forge, turned up the psi to 10 and let it sit till it was all high yellow. When we pulled it out it had alot of smoke coming off both pieces. I used a one pound ball peen hammer and tapped them together. It stuck instantly. We refinded the weld and I started working on a trade hatchet I'll show when I get it done. Anyway it was my first forge weld and I'm kinda proud. I was gonna take picks but it didn't work out. Sure was fun though.