Being charged a fee to demonstrate and sell

[David Einhorn]

My humble understanding of the general consensus on IForgeIron is that blacksmiths either:
1) Demonstrate and not have to pay to sell their items, because the demonstration is the payment for the space to sell their wares, and demonstrating decreases ones ability to spend time selling.
2) Pay to sell their items and not demonstrate, or
3) If not allowed to sell items, then ask for $100 per day to be paid as a demonstrator to help towards covering expenses.

The shock today was to be told that the Civil War Weekend event at the local museum requires a payment of $25 to sell stuff as a ***demonstrating craftsperson***, and that next year they will charge $25 plus a percentage of sales.

Demonstrations at living history events cost money. I have spent over $500 just for the steel to upgrade and modify my trailer to be able to transport my mid-1800s reproduction Traveling Forge. Next comes all new electrical and four new tires. Now with higher fuel costs, higher iron costs, food, and other expenses, the purpose of selling items would simply be to help offset my expenses. The extra $25 plus percentage of sales would only add to the financial burden. On top of that, the organizer of the event, a blacksmith himself started his vehicle and drove off when I tried to politely explain my costs and position.

My apologies for venting but this blew my mind.

[Steve Sells]

Most demos I have done are free for me, If I sell anything I keep my money too, but today things are changing. My next ren fair I am demoing for 3 days. I still get a free site, and I can I sleep in my pavilion, but they will take 10% of what I sell, if I sell anything.

[Thomas Dean]

I don't do a lot of demos and those that I do, I am able to sell my items. I have never been charged a fee or asked for a percentage of my sales. I tell them it is an educational demonstration as well as entertaining. I do not perticipate in those where I have to pay to demonstrate...either in fees or % of sales. IMHO, if they NEED that $25.00 then something is bad wrong somewhere! The organizer needs to get off his backside and try to find sponsors for the event to "off-set" expenses. The CW reenatments that I have done do this. I also charge more than the $100 will not conver your time just for loading your equipment let alone unloading and then doing that again to go home. It usually takes me 2 hrs to get my stuff ready and loaded to take to a demo. But then I do have a day job and don't HAVE to do these demos...

[CurlyGeorge]

I've had places where I demo tell me that there is a fee if I sell my goods. I tell them that a blacksmith at an event is a draw to the event and that I shouldn't have to pay for drawing folks to their event for tham. I have had only one not give in, and I told them that I wouldn't be there. The next year they called and asked me to come back. I politely told them that I had already scheduled another demo for that weekend, and I ain't been back. There are two that I go to that I pay a $15 camp fee. But so does everyone else there and we all enjoy the weekend A LOT. I understand your frustration, Dave.

[mtforge]

Most events I demonstrate at don't charge me. But there are a few that I get a 50% off discount( or some such number) if I demonstrate at least 70% of the time. If I think I'll make up that much in sales I do it. I've never paid a percent of my sales and don't think I would like it.

[dablacksmith]

if it is a big event it might be worth it (500+ camp) if it isnt then dont do it... it always amazes me how people running shows use the line"its a dieing art" and " we dont see many blacksmiths anymore" and then want the same fees that they charge people who dont demo ..in fact ive seen events try to make all theyre money off the merchants at the event.. and then when the merchants quit showing up and the event goes downhill thay cant figure why....ive always figured this way an event shouldnt cost more than 15% of what you make for a weekend event if it does i usually will not go back .. and that is figuring things like camp fees sales%local city and state fees and prize donations... if your paying more than that its easyer to sell at a gallery ... or wholesale ! granted wholesale is usually 50% but then you dont have to setup and teardown and you sell in bulk...granted it takes a wile to build up a group of clients to sell to wholesale but once you do it does take some of the work out of selling..

[David Einhorn]

if it is a big event it might be worth it (500+ camp) if it isnt then dont do it...

Its a postage stamp sized event. My guess is that he will discover the hard wary that most craftsmen don't want to come to his event under his conditions. My other guess is that he will start caring when he sees my traveling forge at other events, but not his event. I suspect that he may not fully visualize what a Civil War Traveling Forge is.

[WmHorus]

SCA events used to be you pay a merchant fee and demo or not demo, I dont know anymore since I stepped out of that a long time ago, but demanding 10% of your sales AND a site fee is unreasonable in my opinion, its not their sweat and energy and knowledge going onto the items being sold so they dont deserve any part of it. Just my opinion though.

[dablacksmith]

Its a postage stamp sized event, I suspect that he may not fully visualize what a Civil War Traveling Forge is.

ya small events ide kindly explain the time and cost to haul your setup and that initially you wernt going to charge for demoing but as the event is obviously bigger and can afford it now as they are chargeing to setup a small demo fee of 100 dollars a day is not unreasonable ...ive made more doing simple demos for schools.. its not like this event is going to make or break you. ive done quite a few shows over the years and i get offers all the time ... its really a lot of work for me to setup for a weekend and if its not a decent show i no longer bother ... when i do shows and the public asks why there arnt more blacksmiths doing demos the setup time is one of the points i point out... I dont know of any other craftsman setting up doing demos that hauls as much equipment.. the only thing that would be worse is glassblowers and if you see them setup at shows its a semi permanent shop... good luck!

[John McPherson]

Since I only do local(non-profit) museum events with limited turn-out, and not craft shows, I have never asked for or paid a fee or commission. If I did this as a job, and not a hobby, or had to buy insurance to demonstrate, then my choices become simple. Quit, show up with *lots* of product to sell and someone to run the till****, or charge to demo.

Amusing note: yesterday a potter said he thought he had a hard life, then he saw me unloading my hundred pound 'travel' anvil, forge, bucket o' tongs, etc.

****Hmmm, I wonder what my wife would say if I hired a young, shapely sales assistant in tight clothes? Just kidding honey, put down that knife!

[CurlyGeorge]

:blink: John, you're a brave man, indeed, just making that last comment. :D

[Mainely,Bob]

Here`s the way I`ve always viewed it. You listen to a promoter and you can pretty easily tell who wants to make a huge profit off your sweat (the drive away would have been the clincher for me). I don`t mind people being compensated for their time but not at the expense of me doing the same on my end.The shows I have taken part in either charge a fee OR charge a percentage,not BOTH.
Many of the promoters who have seen what I do and the gear I have to haul and set up to do it know that having the public see me work will be a big draw and an asset to the event.I have never had any problem negotiating my demo in exchange for waiving the booth space fee or percentage of sales.
Each party has it`s own perspective if you can`t reach a compromise then it is totally appropriate to part ways AFTER the discussion is done. Driving off while one side is still talking is pretty much saying "Screw you buddy". You need to find another venue to showcase your skills and not give this promoter a second thought IMO.

[jimw]

Greed is just as bad as ignorance. Both can spell one's undoing. Message to promotors, and all others who think they are slick......................ya' don't realize what you had 'til it's gone!

[DennisG]

Ok, I am up here in Alberta Canada, there are 6 of us doing demos from mid Alberta up to the north, that we are aware of.

Our demos are done at various "heritage day" type events for the small towns. With our short "nice weather" time we can be busy from end of may until end of sept. . Because of our past there are still alot of people who remember the local Blacksmith, may even have worked for him. So we are really there as a draw of sorts and also there to show the craft is still alive and being carried on. We are showing the heritage of our province and past. If you look at a map you will see the size of Alberta. Some shows we do are 2 or more hours drive on the highway each way. Shows are generally 1 day some 2 days.

So with all this being said, we get paid for our demo time usually. I say usually as some events are so small it is just not possible for them but we go anyway, it's a volunteer thing. The fee is about $150 and up per day plus a meal and if it is very far there may be mileage. For that fee they get 2 Blacksmiths, this way while one is resting/mingling/educating at the front, the other smith is "working". We supply all of our needs from water to coal. We leave our site like we found it, no ash or clinkers anywhere. We have tables set up for our wares and benches for people to sit and watch. We can and will sell what we make there as well as what we bring. The income from our sales is ours, we do not pay out percentages. If it is a 2 day event, we will pay for our own camp sites ect. Our day is from about 10 am until 4 or 5 pm. We take a mostly full shop, anvil, forge, post drill, leg vise, hand crank grinder and wire wheels, plus our hammers, tongs, various tools.

The other thing we do besides demoing is educate. We show what was done and how along with how that has helped bring about today. We promote the guild we belong to, Western Canadian Blacksmith Guild . Thru these efforts we let others know that the art and craft are still remembered and practiced and all are welcome to it.

It seems to me that alot of you who do these demos also are full time Blacksmiths making a living doing so. If this is the case then you also have to pay taxes, insurance fees, ect. If you are having to claim your Blacksmithing as a job and pay for a site as well as percentages, then you best be getting receipts to claim for your taxes. These people should have tax numbers too, or however it is you do it in the US. A fair or show may want to wave the fees and such if you are forcing the tax issue. Also, if you have to pay to play you should also have a right to pick your spot. Might I suggest in the middle of the lane of other stalls, or the end spots. If they want you to be anywhere that puts you off or out of the way from other vendors, making people walk further or out of the way, then you will need to renegotiate a rate to reflect this. BTW, do you get a cut of the gate?

To pay a fee makes the whole thing seem like it is a "flea market" setting. Whats next, you have to pay the organizers a commission if you get any off site work from someone met at these shows?

Say no to "Pay for Play" shows!

[HWHII]

On Thursday I was approached by a promoter to vend at a garlic festival. The fee is $75 for the weekend and another $15 if I needed electric. They were also interested if I was going to demo. I replied back and politely asked if they would wave the fees I would be glad to demo. Their response was to give them a detailed report on what and how long I would demo for each day, so they could see if it was worth them waving the fees. What do you all think about that?

[John McPherson]

"John, you're a brave man, indeed, just making that last comment."

Nah, just an olde phart, Curly, and it was driven home yesterday. The first time pottery vendor that had a booth set up directly in front of me and doing well was a cute, cute, cute redhead in tight clothes. After all, what draws a crowd, a fat, bald guy with hairy ears sweating in a leather apron, or a perky redhead in distressed jeans and tank top?

Turns out she was the daughter of old friends that I knew when they got married. I knew her when she was just a bump. She just graduated from college. (We need an emoticon with a long gray beard, for one foot in the grave.)




PS: I knew that the economy was getting better when 'booth babes' started showing back up at the tool trade shows last year. Yesterday the museum ran out of wrist bands, and had to use balloon ribbon instead. Better attendance than in years.

[DennisG]

On Thursday I was approached by a promoter to vend at a garlic festival. The fee is $75 for the weekend and another $15 if I needed electric. They were also interested if I was going to demo. I replied back and politely asked if they would wave the fees I would be glad to demo. Their response was to give them a detailed report on what and how long I would demo for each day, so they could see if it was worth them waving the fees. What do you all think about that?

LOL.....

Should have said yes you would go, but that to actually "DO" Blacksmithing is $75 and they supply lunch plus 5% of the gate.

I am still having trouble understanding this " I come to you to do a show but you have to pay to do it" mentality you all have down there.

[Thomas Dean]

I agree with Dennis on this, totally! We are an attraction, maybe not the main attraction, but still an attraction. During the Dalton Days in our little town last month, I had one of my students stand in for me as we were out of town. The director of the museum was very pleased that I had someone to take my place. Her idea is that we are educational as well as entertaining and they PAY ME to do their demonstrations. My young student, 15yr old, got the $$ for this demo too, he earned it. I loaned him the forge, anvil, and tongs and gave him the coal. He is buying the anvil with the $$ he earned at the demo. One happy young man for sure!

[Ian]

Perhaps things just work a little differently over the water, but I don't pay anyone to demonstrate at an event. Quite the opposite in fact.
I've certainly done a few demonstration days for free (with the right to sell anything I make or take with me) in the early days but now I charge the event organisers for my attendance.

Usually it's £100 per hour (all inclusive) for a straight demo, or £150 per hour for a demo that involves any sort of teaching session. So far no one has questioned me or the prices and I've got several gigs lined up for late September after my trip. I'm not as expensive as some by a long shot either.
The idea that we as Craftsmen (and women) should have to pay anyone to demonstrate is laughable to me. There are about 3000 or so registered Blacksmiths in the UK (with a population of 63 million) if an event organiser is not happy with what I'm asking then they can talk to one of them instead, if they even know where to look.
I think it's cheeky.

[Old N Rusty]

Ian, not all of us who demo in the U.S. have faced this problem, I was asked to demo for an event, and was pleasantly suprised to find out they were willing to pay me! It felt almost criminal to take their money for having so much fun! I would do more "smoke n noise" shows if it was not so much work to haul a forge, anvil, and tools.

[Larry H]

make them do without a blacksmith,.....re-enactors love their smiths, eventually they will give up the idea

[David Einhorn]

make them do without a blacksmith,.....re-enactors love their smiths, eventually they will give up the idea

Around here, well I guess it’s a bit complicated. Within a few hours driving distance there is abundance both of blacksmithing groups and "living history" events. For discussion purposes here I will divide events into two categories, events that are supported by blacksmith guilds as part of their commitment to the support of museums and historical sites, and the second category where there is no guild arrangement.

At the events supported by the various blacksmithing clubs either at the historical site or at traveling displays, the clubs will make an effort to provide demonstrator support regardless of whether a smith is allowed to sell or is charged a fee and/or percentage to sell. The difference is that at events where smiths are allowed to re-coop part of their expenses by selling stuff, it is much easier to find people willing to demonstrate, more smiths will show up, and more and sometimes better equipment will be set up (I confess to having a bias in believing that an 11ft long historically correct wheeled forge weighing over 1200 pounds empty, or anything with a bellows is a better display than a rivet forge). At events and historic sites where smiths are not allowed to sell or is charged to sell, the person recruiting demonstrator(s) will have a more difficult time getting at least one smith to show up. And if that no-selling or fee-expected site does not have its own shop and equipment, then they might not get a smith with anything even close to historically correct for the period with even a bellows. One local museum (according to my humble understanding of what I last heard, and I hope to be corrected if the arrangement has again changed) stopped letting smiths sell from the shop, and you can guess the resulting difficulties.

The independent historical events around here are numerous and perhaps somewhat odd. Smiths doing demonstrations have too often been placed with their equipment in hard to find out-of-the-way corners of events. One smith at a nationally advertised *massive* event with over a hundred-thousand participants reported being located in such an isolated corner that only two people came by in three days. Being located near the Porta-Potties is not unusual, as some if not many organizers prefer to keep what they consider smelly stuff away from the main action. These events seem to want smiths to provide an historical flavor and backdrop but don't seem to care whether the smith’s equipment is historically correct, or a rivet forge, or even a kid banging randomly on a splintering length of too cold iron “reenacting a smith”. Yes I even saw a kid “reenacting a smith” splintering a bar of cold iron at random at an “historical” event not affiliated with a club.

Around here organizers don’t seem to have much trouble talking someone with a rivet forge to come to their event, probably not to return for a repeat of the experience, but there are apparently lots of folks with rivet forges around here. Maybe my wheeled traveling forge to events will increase the demand for more historically correct displays, and the willingness of organizers to be supportive of demonstrators, but I am having increasingly severe doubts.

My understanding is that this past weekend’s event will next year ask for $25 plus 15% of sales of all craftspersons, both smiths and non-smiths. It will be interesting to see how many craftspeople find that arrangement attractive. It will also be interesting to see how much longer that event will continue to be held each year. My prediction is that particular event will cease to exist within the next five years.

[ThomasPowers]

You know we "pay to demo" even if the event's free: loading and hauling, *time*! all are costs.

If they want a percentage of sales: I'd ask for a percentage of the "gate" as you are a draw!

Or ask they pay 50 cents a mile + your time at a reasonable rate.

2 hour dive---you lucky stiff I have a couple events I do where it's 6 and 8 plus hours each way!

Cute young thing: My wife probably wouldn't kick up a fuss---just buy her a whip and tell her to keep up production at the forge...

I demo at one Arts and Crafts fair where they would like us to not sell anything under $20. Rather rough as the bread and butter sakes are small stuff that can be made on site. I get around this by selling groups of the smaller items---and they are not real harsh in enforcement as it was instituted to help keep out cheap imported stuff some folks were sneaking in. I've been told that *everyone* talks about the smiths there and we keep the kids interested while their folks look over the "fine arts" stuff. (What's funny is that I make most of my sales there on set up and tear down days---so it's the other craftspeople buying it! I guess they recognize what a deal it is!)

[Marksnagel]

I've been told that *everyone* talks about the smiths there and we keep the kids interested while their folks look over the "fine arts" stuff.

Thats funny Thomas, I always thought the things from the forge were the "fine arts" stuff.

Lots of good advice in this topic.

Mark<><

[mike-hr]

I do several public demos a year. I pay half price vendor fee at one, but I volunteered to do so because it's a fundraiser, a great time, and has a crowd that appeals to my niche. The other events I do I get free lot space and keep all the money i make. I honestly feel public demo's aren't about selling widgets, it's about being professional, having a picture book on the table, and handing out business cards. I don't like the repetition of selling $300 of widgets at $10 each, I'd rather sell one plant hanger with a wind vane for $300. I worked 3 months last year from one bystander at a fair that liked my style, and referred me to different friends. Ain't nothing beats a happy customer with a speed dial on their phone.