wondering about forging bolts

[FieryFurnace]

So I am working on quoting a hinge restoration job. I'm looking at four hinges that are 32 inches long and 3 inches wide. I need to forge hinge pins, plates, and straighten three of the original hinge pieces. The guy also needs 12 square head bolts. I had originally thought that I would just buy some from Blacksmith's Depot or something. However the guy wants them to the pattern of a bolt he already has.


What I'm wondering is, do bolts have to be forged from carbon metal or can they be mild? Thanks to a member on here, I have the taps to do the nuts, but I would have to purchase the correct die and handle.
I also assume that I would need to make a swage to size the shaft to the perfect diameter. I believe them to be about a half inch!

Any advice on how to replicate this bolt 12 times would be appreciated!

Thoughts???

[clinton]

How old are the hinges? That looks like it maybe wrought iron. Do it 10 times and you should be able to duplicate. I would make a bolster plate to do the heading, leave it a little long to start out with, you can cut to length later. I would start out with lager material- if you need 1/2 inch start with 3/4 and forge down. A spring swage would be useful

[ThomasPowers]

*Most* bolts are mild steel. Very few are made in medium carbon. With the screw thread the increased brittleness of high carbon is not generally wanted.

How to replicate them 12 times? Do it 20 times and choose the 12 best!

I'd start with square and swage the round section with a spring swage while turning the stock, then head it, dress the head to square and then rehead it to add the extra flats.

[FieryFurnace]

you make it sounds so easy! LOL

[monstermetal]

If you want easy pay me to do it ;)

[Timothy Miller]

Lets say the head is 3/4" and the shank is 3/8" square. Take a bar of 3/4" neck using a guillotine tool or (the edge of your anvil and hammer if your Peter Ross) down to 3/8" square. Cut it off of the bar with a hot cut not a saw (its a waste of time and will not build skills) with enough to form the head. Drop the blank into a header with a 3/8" square hole and upset and bevel the head. Then swage down the shank to 3/8". You will probably need to make the swage but do it as you will need it cause your in this trade for the long haul. Expect to throw away the first 3 or 4 you make that's the price you will pay for learning. If you are using hot rolled or scrap steel DO NOT QUENCH THEM!!! threading will be a lot harder than it needs to be. Wrought iron or cold rolled you might be ok.

[pkrankow]

Looks headed like a nail.

Mild is fine, you have size on your side.

Higher grades of bolts are alloy and higher carbon steel, but a whole lot of bolts are nothing special and just mild steel. I know, it never seems that way when you go buy that one bolt you need for a project Hardware stores tend to only sell higher grades as a cost expedient.

Phil

[bigfootnampa]

I would start with 1/2" square stock. Upset and shape the head and then hand forge the round part of the shank. Hand forging a round shape is not too hard and with a bit of care it will be pretty darn accurate. I might use a bit of sanding belt to smooth the round shank before threading. Really it is pretty simple and I know that you have all the necessary skills Dave.

[FieryFurnace]

uhhh well if nothing else, y'all are good at building confidence! I had something unexpected come up this morning which will delay this project for a few days. I should be able to get to it in about two weeks if the client goes through with it.
Fortunately the client seems to be pretty set on getting copies of what he already has and he probably won't be able to find bolts like this at Lowes. I'm thinking these are going to be pretty expensive though.

I've got to quote the guy a price, but I have no idea how long it will take me to do a bolt and nut once I have it down. Is thirty minutes per set a good guess? I have no idea!

This is definately going to be a challenge! Bring it on! ;)

[dablacksmith]

from the original bolts ive seen i believe on the larger ones (say 1/2 on up ) the head was a forge weld ... take your parent stock (for this 1/2 sq) and use a piece of same wrap it around and trim it off i cant really decribe how ..could show you and if i get a chance i will ... ive done this a few times it comes out with a good bolt here is a couple pictures of one ive reworked it is wrought iron the mild should work as well...

[monstermetal]

I don't think it will take anything like 6 hours for a dozen. I think a couple hours is plenty

[ThomasPowers]

If you don't have a spring swage you have to factor in the time to set that up---why small runs tend to be so expensive!

[FieryFurnace]

Mr. Thomas,

That is something I've often wondered about. Namely if and when to factor in the time it takes to make a tool for a specific job.
Say for instance, a half inch spring swage for these bolts. I would think a 1/2" spring swage would be a somewhat commonly used tool in mortise and tennon. So if I am making a tool that I would use frequently around the shop why would I charge my client for the time it takes me to make that tool?
I can understand if it is a strictly job specific tool and I would never or rarely use it again. Perhaps that is what you are talking about?
That's just something I wondered about. How do you suggest handling that?

It doesn't look like I'll have to forge these down afterall. My client has decided to go with a regular square head bolt but I am going to knock the heads down to match the one pictured. From the ouside it will look the same, and he's satisfied with that!

On one hand that's kind of dissapoining because I was looking forward to the challenge.

Dablacksmith: I know exactly what you are talking about for the head. I don't know if that would be faster or not. I had forgotten about that method but I do remeber seeing step-by-step tutorials on that in some of my books!

Thanks guys for pitching in. I need to get some dies and do some anyway! :)

[Fosterob]

Check that the size of the square head is the same size as what he wants, or does it matter?
On a tool that you should have I usually charge 30%-50% of the time to make it to the job knowing it will be used much more in the future.
Rob

[ZIG]

Any tool you gotta make to do a job like a half inch swage, should have a percentage of the time/material cost of the tool added to the work/job

Its just like a auto mechanic. , they Might have to buy a tool to work on a certain car. And That tool was or will be needed on other cars later. So you can't forget yourself on that stuff.
After making a tool like that to do a certain job, but one that will save you time and Money later on future projects. When you don't drop the price, cause your faster with the tool, now.
Well point is. Then Your actually charging the next Guy for the tool too.

Did That make sense? ??
You know what I'm saying. Any tool will pay divedends. If not tgw customer will have to pay for the tool to do That job, if its a tool That Can't be used on future projects. Which there ain't many you want use again. I make up reasons to use It. Even if I am just playing around.

Bare with me on my chatter. Lol.
I high rpm. Low IQ.

[FieryFurnace]

10-4

A percentage makes sense that way you kind of spread it out. My thinking is if you are doing a $500 job and you say oh hey I have to make a tool and it's going to take me two hours and I charge $50 per hour, that adds $100 to the price. That may just be the make and break for the deal. I'm still trying to learn how to detect that fine line in my clients and I know it varries between clients.

This client emailed again this morning and said he needed an additional 20 lag screws on top of the dozen bolts. I'm still going to knock the heads down on them, but I don't need nuts and washers for them.

The size head is not a big issue....just the size of the actual bolt.

[silkhopesmith]

I have made a few bolts like this and for a small amount like 10 or 12 usually do them freehand. It looks in the photo like the square shank of the bolt is tapered, which is common on many old bolts. If so, it is actually easier to make the bolt, as most of the shank will be loose in the header rather than having to be a tight fit. Also looks like its a toss-up whether to weld a collar on for the head or draw down from larger stock.
For the short amount of round section needed I usually forge freehand, keeping a pair of calipers or a scrap with the right size hole on the forge for handy reference. The first one or two will be tricky, but the rest should go smoothly. If you don't think you'll use a tenon tool often, freehand is still an option. This may also help produce what the customer wants, which is a copy of the sample.

[HWHII]

I'm still trying to learn how to detect that fine line in my clients and I know it varries between clients.



I don't think anyone ever masters this. You just have to decide what you have to make on the job and what you can live with. In these hard times and you need the work. It is hard when you price yourself out of a job. But on the other hand when you bust your butt on a job do quality work and your bottom line is only $10 or $15 bucks an hour after expenses how do you feel then? If your family are hungry and you need fuel in your truck and your kids need clothes, you can bet I feel good with that in the end.

Do what makes you happy, not what other people think.

[Larry H]

is that a 5/8 sq. turned down to a 1/2" thread? If so,...upset the 5/8 to form the head ....and hows that power hammer working? put a 1/2 inch spacer on the lower die and size the 5/8 down with the spacer as a stop and you won't have to make a swage, it also will give the look you need

[Frosty]

The way I do these is to simply buy a 1/2" black bolt and forge the head square. The heads are where the forging is going to show and a spring swage and die is going to eliminate any hammer marks. You'll still need a header but that's no biggy. The forge's heat will put a nice forge finish on it as well.

Is this honest? Sure, so long as you don't misrepresent the product. If you reforge a bolt or screw you can do it in a couple minutes ea. so materials + time constitutes a serious savings for both of you. Oh yeah, reforging existing products for new purpose is the blacksmith's stock in trade.

Just be careful to avoid plated bolts or screws. The silver galvy or chromed ones can be cleaned of plating easily and safely enough. Galvy can be removed in vinegar in a few hours or over night. Dilute Sulphuric acid works much faster and I think on chrome as well. Wear safety gear, glassses, apron, gloves, and good shoes, I like rubber boots taped closed at the top but I've handled some quantity mixes. ALWAYS mix acid into water, NEVER, EVER water into acid to avoid BAD things happening. This last is VERY important.

Hand forging bolts isn't difficult but is a little finicky. Hand forging screws on the otherhand is a bugger and a half.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Spears]

Hello Dave,

If the square shank of the bolt isn’t important (i.e. doesn’t show after assembly), you can purchase “plain finish” (un-plated) low carbon square head bolts up to 8” long from McMaser Carr Supply. Then you can forge or grind the head to come close. That is if “come close” is acceptable for the job.

I’m assuming the thread is 1/2-13 standard USA. Low carbon plain steel (un-plated) square nuts are also available. Try Mc Master Carr website and just type in the numbers 90043A055 & 91465A194. Or you can sort through the index.

I use McMaster Carr plain finish hardware for many projects so I can weld or forge the components without breathing in poison. As far as authenticity and replication goes, that depends on whether your customer wants to pay for the extra time to hand build hardware as opposed to how close you can replicate with “hand altered” hardware. Best wishes and good luck with the project. Spears.

[Bryce Masuk]

you could also weld a block on to the head of a bolt and forge that into the head this saves tapping them if you had to make alot of them you would spend more time tapping than forging for sure.

doing it the right way is best though make them from scratch

you should quench the shank right up to the shoulder when heading the bolt though usually if its a small bolt (1/4 shank) will have to for sure

then at the end heat the whole thing up red hot and let it anneal

[Bryce Masuk]

you should make a few styles of bolts these are good things to have and complete the package on bigger projects


you shouldnt be charging less than 10 dollars a bolt up to double that

they arent hard to make and they dont take too long to forge the finishing takes time though

make samples and build a shelf fill it up and as the work gets better scrap the worst of your stuff