monstermetal Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I am not trying to pick on anyone but it never fails to amaze me what a lot of cheapskates we are.. There is always some thread going on about how much something cost or how crazy someone is for paying 6 bucks a pound for an anvil... I have noticed selling tools that a working blacksmith is the toughest customer to have... They expect more for less than just about any other group I have ever dealt with... Why is it that as a whole we seem to be this way (I have my own cheapskate habits, although I dont mind spending money on tools) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Probly a genetic matter,seems blacksmiths are all eccentric as well for the same reason...............mb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fciron Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Probly a genetic matter,seems blacksmiths are all eccentric as well for the same reason...............mb :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I'm wondering if maybe it's because there are still all these stories floating around about how inexpensive the equipment used to be, and there's still guys wanting those prices. You hear stories that when all the old blacksmith shops closed up, the equipment was worth nothing but scrap with nobody wanting it and now it is desirable and starting to sell for a 'significant' amount of money. If I had a choice of paying scrap prices or 'premium' prices for the same equipment, I would rather pay scrap price. If I don't have the choice and still want the equipment bad enough, I guess I will have to suck it up and pay what the market tells me to pay. Sounds a lot like the American muscle cars to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlreif Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I agree with you Monster. It does seem a bit frustrating. I guess from my perspective I would rather do without than to buy cheap and have it fail after one use. I'm talking the cheap tool stores like harbor freight for tools in general. As for the used tools, we all want to buy as cheap as we can but we want to sell it high. For this reason I purchase my major tools new. My anvil new, fly press new, motor for my power hammer new. You get the point. I just find it easier and less of a hassle to look at a price and say ok I have to save this much money and it is mine. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimenickel Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 depends... if your a hobbyist ...then alot are cheep some of the large shops that do well, seem to do with a good bit of extra its funny but i think most blacksmiths aren't big time risk takers with money... not like those wallstreet types (risk alot, stand to gain or lose alot ! ) ... its hard work and the cash is not so easy to toss around.. at least for me. Greg the cheeeEEeepskate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 You know its funny for me in the sense that I am a cheap buyer... Most of the things I buy I am buying because its a "deal" I dont see that as cheap.. I see it as shrewd... But when the blacksmith is buying from me... He doesn't want to pay the price in my eyes because he is cheap... Funny how Im shrewd and he is cheap There is also a big difference between me and someone who thinks an anvil is only worth $1/lb... I might only be willing to pay $1/lb for that anvil, but I know its WORTH much more (I just wont pay it) where as others might think its only WORTH $1/lb... :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 One thing is I can say I am not in love with money... I am however in love with tools... So if the choice is to have tools or money... I'll go with tools every time (causing much stress to my wonderful wife, especially when the mortgage is due) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 It is because of the type of people blacksmithing attracks. Do it yourselfers with a streak of cheapskate in them. If we did not want to do it the hard way we wouldn't be blacksmiths. The "make it yourself" aspect attracks a lot of us in the first place. I would have to say the fact it is a hobby for most also plays a large part here. When something makes me money I never gripe about price. I only see an asset. When I am doing it for fun, it hurts to spend anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Partly it is because for a lot of tooling we could make it ourselves and so any buy has to overcome the cost/benefit ratio with that in mind. I notice that a lot of pro's don't quibble over prices as their time has a definite dollar amount attached to it and they *know* it! OTOH some hobby folks are on the "buy" side of things as their skills may not be up to making some of the stuff they want. Then there are the mean low down cantankerous coots like my self that are just to cheap to buy "retail" what they can find "wholesale". (Struck out at the fleamarket today only things I saw that I wanted were about three times what I wanted to pay---luckily I am at the stage where I don't *need* much stuff and only asked to replenish items that students use on a regular basis and so I can wait to get that stuff cheap. OTOH no Gym charge for a brisk walk and a lot of bending over and squatting down---My Dr would like it better if the local fleamarket was about 3 times the size of our small town one...) Also for a historical view on things: a lot of the small town blacksmiths were on the way out by the time we came along. No longer large shops with a half dozen to a dozen workers busy all the time they were down to a single old smith riding the only craft he had ever worked down towards death. These folks were living reminders of the Use it up, Wear it out, Make do or Do without. Straightening bent rusty nails and saving baling wire. Some of their views have come down to us (as compared to industrial smiths who had more active employment until the more recent phase out of a lot of industry in the USA and have a different view of the craft.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiritrider Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Some of us (cheapskates) prefer to be called frugal. I just lately bought a Fisher Norris 250# for $50.00. Smooth faced, few small nicks on the horn, on a steel stand. I shall remain as frugal as possible. spiritrider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaktelcom Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I don't see a problem! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Funny how the same folks who moan about the price of things like new steel and old anvils are usually the first ones to give things up for nothing or lend things out with no worries about getting it back. What`s up with that!? :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bourne101 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 to me it seems that it is more of a matter of patience. the only other people who take on this hobby near my shop in NY are some of the most patient people i know and for me, if something is a little expensive i'll just go without it or improvise and yes, that is a lot of the do-it-yourselfer in me talkin ^o^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajajoaquin Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 You know its funny for me in the sense that I am a cheap buyer... Most of the things I buy I am buying because its a "deal" I dont see that as cheap.. I see it as shrewd... But when the blacksmith is buying from me... He doesn't want to pay the price in my eyes because he is cheap... Funny how Im shrewd and he is cheap Not only are you shrewd, but you're self-aware. An interesting (and unusual) combination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYBOY Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 A lot of guys have been use to finding deals like $30 post vises and $100 anvils for years but im hear to tell ya' those deals are far and few between now..Yea, it still happens but not nearly like it use too and some places it dosnt happen at all tp speak of.. You have a lot of new guys coming in and hearing tales of "Ah I use to buy them all day long for $30" and think they are gonna find those deals too..They often forget to mention that those $30 deals were in another state or 25 years ago.. Yea, last year I bought a super nice champion blower on a stand for $50 Awsome deal, but that was one deal in over 6 years of hard looking for a nice blower..Every other one was wore out and $100+..So for every "$30 deal" there is over a hundred "$100 deals".. Some places are smith tool poor and that alone drives prices up.. Thomas often talks about Ohio being anvil/tool rich and hes right but its not rich in good deals anymore..I know. I know at least a half dozen tool collector/sellers who make no less than monthly trips into Ohio and come back with nearly nothing these days.They are finding tools, just not good deals where they can make money. Its just flat harder to get those super deals these days..Yea if you wait long enough you can but the thing is how long are you willing to wait for that good deal when you need said piece of equipment..If you already have enough equipment then your good to go and can wait..If you need it and dont have it then it may be worth it to pay $100 for that blower or vise instead of waiting six years to save $40 bucks.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordcaradoc Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 You know its funny for me in the sense that I am a cheap buyer... Most of the things I buy I am buying because its a "deal" I dont see that as cheap.. I see it as shrewd... But when the blacksmith is buying from me... He doesn't want to pay the price in my eyes because he is cheap... Funny how Im shrewd and he is cheap This reminds me of something George Carlin once said. "My s#!t is Stuff and other people's stuff is s#!t." A lot of guys have been use to finding deals like $30 post vises and $100 anvils for years but im hear to tell ya' those deals are far and few between now..Yea, it still happens but not nearly like it use too and some places it dosnt happen at all tp speak of.. You have a lot of new guys coming in and hearing tales of "Ah I use to buy them all day long for $30" and think they are gonna find those deals too..They often forget to mention that those $30 deals were in another state or 25 years ago.. Yea, last year I bought a super nice champion blower on a stand for $50 Awsome deal, but that was one deal in over 6 years of hard looking for a nice blower..Every other one was wore out and $100+..So for every "$30 deal" there is over a hundred "$100 deals".. Some places are smith tool poor and that alone drives prices up.. Thomas often talks about Ohio being anvil/tool rich and hes right but its not rich in good deals anymore..I know. I know at least a half dozen tool collector/sellers who make no less than monthly trips into Ohio and come back with nearly nothing these days.They are finding tools, just not good deals where they can make money. Its just flat harder to get those super deals these days..Yea if you wait long enough you can but the thing is how long are you willing to wait for that good deal when you need said piece of equipment..If you already have enough equipment then your good to go and can wait..If you need it and dont have it then it may be worth it to pay $100 for that blower or vise instead of waiting six years to save $40 bucks.. My blower was a deal passed along by DiverMike from here about a year and a half ago for $25. He said when he picked it up, it was seized, but as he was walking out to the car, he dropped it and coal fell out and it suddenly was able to turn, sort-of. I finally got it tore down and rebuilt, found it had previously been rebuilt from two different Western Cheif models (different model numbers on the two sides of the housing. and am working on a stand this weekend. My Anvil is an Old Army anvil (great rebound, no ring) I got for free from a good friend of mine who worked at the National Guard base in Portland, OR. He found it headed for scrap, so he got it free and passed it along to me for the same price. He recently lost a battle with cancer, so that anvil will never be sold, it is a good reminder of one of the people who kept me inspired in the craft. The point I am trying to make is that we all need patience to find our "deals". If we don't have patience and the ability to walk away from a bad deal the prices will continue to skyrocket. Now a little parable from John Brown over at NWBA. (Posted with permission) - Larry, I think you'll recognize it from this last fall.The Parable of the missed opportunity, or The Anvil A guy walks into a bar...and announces that he has a 150lb Peter Wright anvil to sell. Inside the bar there are: 3 hobby blacksmiths that are all looking for their first anvil to get started smithing, an eccentric anvil "collector" from California, a grumpy old retired guy who claims that his grandfather was a blacksmith, and a metalworker from the Pacific Northwest. One of the young hobby smiths stands up and excitedly says "I've been looking for just this anvil, in just this weight, in just this condition for over two years! I can’t wait another minute to get started smithing. I only have $425.00 to spend. How much do you want for it?" The tool monger calmly replies, "I am asking $450.00 ($3/lb), but it is in perfect original condition. You won’t find a nicer one anywhere.” The young smith replies, “I’ll give you $425.00 for it, it’s all I have”. “No, $450.00 is my price, not a penny less. Do you realize how much these things go for on Ebay? This is a deal!” Dejected, the young smith sits down, realizing that he cannot afford the anvil. The eccentric collector from California chimes in, “If I didn’t already have seven of this exact anvil, I would buy it myself and I would have been willing to pay up to $1,000.00 for this anvil in this pristine condition”. The other two hobby smiths are frantically reaching for their wallets. They are both computer programmers with plenty of money, and this seems like a really nice anvil to get them started on their lifelong dream of making swords. Before they can get to their cash, the grumpy old guy jumps up and exclaims “I can’t take it anymore, this is outrageous! When I was a kid, there were anvils scattered all over the place. You could get them for practically nothing. NO used anvil is worth more than $2.25/lb and certainly not this one”! I wouldn’t pay a penny more than $300.00, and anyone who would is a fool”! The two hobby smiths just stare at each other. The grumpy old guy really seems to know his stuff (after all, his grandfather was a blacksmith). What would all the other hobby blacksmiths think of them if they paid an extra $150.00 to fulfill their lifelong dream of making swords? Not wanting to make a horrific blacksmithing mistake so early on in their career, the two would-be sword makers sit back down. The grumpy old guy takes a second look at the anvil. It is nice. Probably the nicest one he has ever seen. Perfect edges, no cut marks, gouges or sway in the face. And that horn, that really shapely horn…it does have a sleek stylish rake to its stance…this is a really nice old anvil he thinks to himself…he excitedly blurts out “I’ll give you $440.00 for it and not a penny more”, just as the metalworker from the Pacific Northwest hands the man a check for $450.00 and says “I’ve been looking for a nice 2nd anvil for the shop. This one is perfect and will increase my production by 35-40%. Heck, it’ll pay for itself in the first week”. As the metalworker walks out of the bar smiling with the anvil under his arm, the grumpy old man turns to the others and says “can you believe how much that idiot paid for that anvil”? All characters appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental. Best regards, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksnagel Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Well for me, as a hobby blacksmith, I don't have the funds to make major purchases. Sometimes even something as small as a hammer can be a major purchase depending on my pay/bills that month. I am patient when I want something because I have to be. Can't get blood out of a rock. I feel that a lot of the prices especially on anvils are over inflated because of collectors but maybe that is just because I waited so long to get one. Any tool made by a good blacksmith is most usually worth its price. It just may be a price that I can't handle right now. Then either I have to make it myself or buy a cheaper model or do without. Sometimes there is some whining and moaning on my part about prices being so high but in reality my whining is more directed at myself for not being able to get what I want. To those that say quit whining and just go get what you want because it's out there, I liken it to the show The Yankee Workshop with Norm. Norm gives us step by step procedures to make some really neat things. He says, "Now just take it to your planer." I say, "I can't afford a planer Norm." Norm says, "Now use your biscuit cutter." I say, "Norm, I can't afford a biscuit cutter." My point is that not all of us can afford everything we want therefore it all looks pretty much outta reach, hence the whining about prices. In time things may change but not in this economy. So having entered into an obsession that may take a little money from time to time forgive my whining, it is my own shortcoming. Mark<>< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Alot of the blacksmiths I have met over the years have come from a poor or modest background. I have not met many with a pocket full of cash to get started. I have always had to stretch a buck or make do with what ever I could and make it work for what I needed. When I buy something I have no problem paying a fair price for something and would not even think of talking someone down, but if the price is to high I will. If the price is outragous I won't even bother. When I started to sell prouduct I would ask myself (Would I buy this for this price?) My anwser was usually NO! I guess maybe I am a Cheapskate. <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYBOY Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Sometimes we do have to wait for a good deal. Indeed most of the time we do. The only point I was trying to make is just how long is a good deal worth waiting for? Two years? Three years? Five years? It can well take that long in some places for what most folks think of as a "good deal" Even from a hobby smiths point of veiw I dont want to wait two years to save $50..One decent camp tri-pod will make that $50 difference..One decent Axe will make it several times over.. ______________________________________________________ . Think about this folks..You are smiths. What about selling your work to pay for equipment Every piece of equipment in our shop has been paid for many times over.Nothing was ever bought out of pocket.Always bought with sales money from product..We started with a repaired 75 pound Bay Hudden and a forge made from the bottom of a 50 gallon drum. Sold work, bought more equipment. Better equipment, better work. Better work, more equipment..Now Lisa runs a succesful little business from our shop. I sure dont have a crap load of money to spend on smithing equipment either. If I did Id be working off a 500 pound anvil and doing my drawing on a 100 pound LG..I want these things and will have them. Ive no doubt Ill pay thru the nose for them but that aint gonna stop me..We'll sell and save till we can get em'.. _____________________ None of us can do a thing about the prices going up..No matter how many of us dont buy there will be someone out there that will..Thats just the nature of the beast..Ive been a gun collector for over 20 years..Its the same thing, the market never declines. It only rises.. That $500 anvil we didnt buy this year will probably be $600 next year.. When it comes down to it folks just need to do whats right for them I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Browne Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 This reminds me of something George Carlin once said. "My xxxx is Stuff and other people's stuff is xxxx." Now a little parable from John Brown over at NWBA. (Posted with permission).The Parable of the missed opportunity, or The Anvil A guy walks into a bar... When did my name change from Dave to John...? Hey, we're all cheap, frugal, savvy, whatever you want to call it. Most of us do not have an unlimited budget when it comes to tools, (whether we want to admit it or not- LARRY). Sometimes, it's OK to wait for the great deal, sometimes you just need to pull the trigger. I rarely regret my purchases, it is the ones that I passed on that come back to haunt me... -DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 So add in one more character to that story an old retired farmer sitting at the bar. After that sale he turns to the new smiths and says Shoot I have 4 anvils in my barn that I would have sold for a dollar a pound; now that I know that I should be getting $3 a pound I won't take a penny less! Just as true as the above story. One problem I see is that many folks seem to assume that a "deal" is going to seek them out and go to a lot of trouble to find them. No, that kind of thing is when the owner is expecting a profit large enough to cover all that fuss and bother and then some. You have to go out and HUNT a great "deal". I fold that time and effort into my daily life---talking to people at fleamarkets, grocery stores, feed stores, church, social activities---going to a party tonight and I'll bet good money that before the party is over *everyone* will know that I'm a smith and interested in picking up blacksmithing stuff! As such I don't spend a lot of money and only a slight increment on time setting things up to lure deals to me. I'm not pushing like I used to as I'm fairly well tooled up; but I still look out for stuff for my students who haven't learned to "network" yet. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunsmithnMaker Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Whether you want to admit it or not we are all conservative. You have to weigh each purchase against your expected use and budget. What if you can find that nice anvil for $75.00 in a couple years at a small auction or a yard sale? Was it worth using that piece of rail for an anvil for that long? How much more can you expect to charge for your work if you buy a brand new $1000.00 anvil? If you find other wannabe smiths cheap you have to ask yourself what would you have liked to have paid in their position? If you find your fellow experienced blacksmiths cheap maybe it's because you belong to their fraternity and not many people can say that, so they figure you can cut them a break. I suppose your view of generosity or helpfulness may not be the same as everyone else when it comes to helping others, but you wouldn't be here if you didn't think you had something to add to the craft. Prices are what they are, and I never expected to find an anvil for the price I paid for mine in my area at any point. I feel lucky, and maybe the former owner does too, it's not taking up space at his place anymore. Am I cheap? Depends on the point of view of others I guess. I'll try to save every bit of my resources for as long as I can if I can find things or get them for free or at a huge "savings" over what might be considered a normal price. That's called conserving your capital. I'm proud to be called a cheapskate if you feel it necessary, but I'd say frugal and definitely conservative fit better. If it came down to it I'd probably give you the shirt off my back if you needed it. I hope others in our fraternity would do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 A lot of people seem to want to buy a 100 lb anvil for 100 dollars a hand full of cheap tools from the china based tool store and some used scrap steel. Then make an item and wonder why they cant get several hundred dollars for it because Dont they realize that Im special I have a god given talent Im an artist Caint just anybody do this stuff. Well We aint special and most anybody can do this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimenickel Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 can also be where we came from... i don't know too many rich folk that want to swing a hammer for a living.. - maybe its cause our folks were poor as sin.. that we cling to bucks.. i remember i couldn't even afford to play an arcade game when i was young...just watch over the shoulders of others...... now someone with that kind of background isn't gonna throw stupid money at stuff... besides... don't you get that feeling... when you get a deal... heh heh satisfaction penny pincher Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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