MLMartin Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I am not calling myself a master of any kind, well maybe at making people mad but I'm not to worried about that. I am certainly not good at making knives or swords. But i do recognize folks ganging up on the new guy and always discouraging them to try anything. I keep seeing guys and galls that post of this site and ask about making knives and swords or anything for that matter all the time and people always discourage them so much. I understand that some people on this site make some of the nicest knifes in the world, and that great. But it still dose not have anything to do with why I posted in the first place. Most of the people on this site forge for fun / a hobby. Some people will strive to the most accurate and perfects works and other people will make an ok thing just for fun. And both are just fine. I understand that people that are trying to make the best sword possible and want to dedicate a huge amount of time to becoming a great sword or knife maker would benefit heavily from yalls advice. But for all the other people that just want to play in a forge as a hobby, telling them that they cant even try a sword or knife or that they should not attempt such a thing for a long time is horrible in my eyes. I am ashamed of how often I see new folks shot down for just trying something. Yes forge work is dangerous, and those dangers need to be warned of. But people should not to told not to try. I first got in to forge work because i was trying to make a knife just like many other people, and if people had told me not to try, or to spend years making tapers or any other exercise before i even attempt i would never have continued in forge work. I am vary glad that I was not discouraged. I am a few years into my schooling for historical colonial forge work and love every day in the forge. I would not discourage anyone from attempting this trade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 you seem to be missing the point of what folks here are saying a bit.. People are just worried that if they go 'yeah dude, hammer away on the old spring, dont worry to much about it, sure it will be fine...' to a person with not much experience in metal work, ....and then that person trys chopping stuff in their front yard, it breaks, and half of it ends up stuck in their little sisters guts, its not very responsible to have said 'go for it dude' in the first place. Its not a secret order of swordsmiths :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I always warn of dangers when I talk to folks about working with metal, and I always encourage them to do more research about shop and metal safety. But i never discourage people from trying any type of forge work, I feel that some people on this site are only telling new folks not to try. I know that it takes years and years to be one of the best blade makers in a field, but theirs no reason that new folks cant learn to make a simple blade in a short time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 A sword is not a simple blade. There are types of forge work that need to be warned against, until after a person gains a certain level of skill. Would you give an average 7 year old a hot crucible of molten brass? You yourself made comments about having a teacher, Working with a skilled teacher makes a lot of difference, you have a teacher to show you things. Many of the posters asking about swords here do not. They are working alone and that is a major issue for danger. I am sorry that in your months of experience you have not noticed that, which is why I want to see your swords, if ya aint done it yourself you real do have no clue, you are just another KeyBoard jockey talking xxxx. Getting the Point of balance isn't to hard, but what about Harmonic nodes? and point of percussion? if the distal taper is off, then there are other issues just created. Your attitude of never seeing a person getting hurt is clear, and your lucky. but irresponsible to tell people its fine to start with a sword, its not really something one can learn reading a book, or posting/chatting in a web site. Working with a skilled teacher makes a lot of difference. Heat treat for a small knife is fairly easy. Swords have more complex issues. When experienced smiths try to educate others, and a kid comes in shooting off his mouth the poor poster has no clue. We are trying to help, you are being a typical youngin trying to get noticed. Like another thread where a kid tells a person use a hand held torch for heat treating swords, just another "look at me, I am clueless but I want to post more", that stuff only causes more confusion. Opinions are fine, but you crossed the line with your insults. Giving advice about things you have never done yourself, is considered false witness, and we deal in facts here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I've never seen anyone here discourage a newbie from trying to make a knife. (I've seen people tell newbies they were making mistakes in making knives, or that they'd be well served to do a little more reading and research on a particular topic in knifemaking.) I have seen people discourage newbies from trying to do dangerous things -- such as making swords. Your view seems to be that since there's some danger in all forging, the dangers are all the same and even rank beginners should be encouraged to undertake the riskiest and most dangerous projects. But the notion that the dangers are all the same is simply wrong. Piloting a wheeled vehicle is dangerous, too. Does that mean it's "horrible" of me to discourage my six year-old from driving the car at the same time I encourage him to ride his bike down in the park? The two are similar in some respects, but one is vastly more dangerous and requires far, far more training and experience. The fact that I try to keep him from driving the car doesn't mean I'm discouraging him from driving altogether. There's nothing "horrible" about making an educated judgment that some activities should be preceded by a sufficient amount of training and experience. And so Colonel Hrisoulas, Thomas, etc., are advising a little caution to someone who they think may not be ready for swordmaking. No one has told him not to forge, or not to make knives. Now, I personally have never made a sword. But I have enough respect for people like Thomas and Colonel Hrisoulas to listen to their advice. You apparently don't. Which is funny, because you're "a few years" into your schooling and they have something approaching 80 years of combined experience behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I have read this thread a lot of times and I think now I see a bit of a different side of it. Actually wot I call the heart of this forum. What I think it rerally says is that youi can post abouit any question you wish on here and you will get responces. Some of those may be direct and to the point you wished and some may wander a bit from the original question. However that to me is the high point in this thread. There are many answers to any question. There are many ways of seeing an issue. And there are all levals of folks that answer these questions. Some folks get involved with a thread as they have experience and knowledge and are willing to share, Some have no experience with the matter but feel they can add something to the discussion. These forums have always beeen like that and will remain that way. Since the site opened we have had a great wealth of knowledge join us and offer wot they can about many threads. At times it takes a while to sort ouit who really has the knowledge for us to benefit by and who is merely repeating things they have read on line or from other sources. One thing I have seen for sure is that those new folks that stick with this craft adn Use the best information they have found ,some of it from this site, have grown and become quite capable of turning out some of the nicest work in a time frame that in the past I did not feel could be accomplished. Those folks with years behind them did not have a site like this, they learned from limited printed matereials or from groups or friends that shared information. And back a few years that did not come easy. Most folks worked hard and long to develop a system that worked and would not share it period. It always amazes me the quality of folks that have joined this group and give that information so freely. Questions asked and questions answered. Simple as that. I am an old dog and not many days go by that i do not learn a new trick on here. Thanks to the site folks that let us do this and to the brain trust that keeps it growing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Bikes swords knives cars molten bronze anything elllsss you can think of, None of this has anything to do with my first comment, Yes swords is the overall topic of this forum, but if you actually read all my post, and think about what Ive said, the only over arching idea of all my post if that many people on this forum discourage and tell new folks that what ever they try is way out of there league. I understand that many of you are some of the best blade makers in the US. But that still has nothing to do with discouraging new folks to the site from working. You can make all the comments about improper swords breaking and hurting people, but that has nothing to do with the swords and everything to do with people being stupid and playing with a weapon like a toy. I have not encouraged anyone to treat weapons like a toy. As stated before im no master and don't pretend to be. Yall can keep posting pictures and credentials of your bladesmithing all day and keep asking to see a blade ive made all day long but you don't need a picture to know there just simple knives ive made. But yet again this has nothing to do with people telling new folks they cant or shouldn't. anything is dangerous if misused. Yall are welcome to keep spiting on me all day long if it makes you happy. I will still stick up for new people that are interested in hand work with what ever kind of work that is.Admin edit: IForgeIron will not tolerate personal attacks, an attack upon you or upon anyone else on the site. IF you feel you have been personally attacked, report it and I can assure you it will be addressed. When a discussion gets heated we ask that you site references to back up your opinion. IForgeIron deals with facts. If you can not site references from other sources, your own experience, photos, etc, the discussion then becomes one of only opinions and not facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Ml you have my attention now amd Maybe I can see wot your point is after all. Please link me to some of the threads that you feel are telling someone to stop making something As they do not have the skill to even attempt such a thing. Then I can see if it is an issue that I can mull and contemplate on...Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 MLM, Are there threads of people here trying to discourage others from learning or doing something new? Please try to post a link if there are. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmHorus Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I personally spent 5 years reading and looking at peoples work before I finally was able to start putting my shop together and putting hammer to steel. I started by making a couple file knives and bought some mono-steel and played with that and made alot of mistakes and ruined alot. I also got interested in making simple damascus, I made mistakes there as well cold shuts and the normal things that happen. But this was all in the last year or so, I also took a class and with alot of help made what was in the picture. Have I attempted it since...yes and I am still trying to work out properly forming a kissaki,( the latest attempt is now a sashimi knife blank ) right now I am focused on making enough cable billets to keep my occupied making some kitchen knives for a while. It took me a little while to get my technique down and that was not without errors as well, but my point is I got advice from people here and from NWBA and Don Foggs site that all helped. I had a couple people giving me crap but ya know what I learned to ignore them and keep doing what I am doing. But I am getting to the point now where I can start producing once I get more billets made. Some folks will give great advice some will talk crap YOU have to decide for yourself which is which and who is who. I by no means am an expert in anything and am FAR from being anything other than a wannabe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 WmH: If you want some suggestions as to how to get a "decent" kissaki forged..drop me a line...I covered that subject in book IV.. To MLMartin: Well since YOU addressed your insults to me.. I will respond in the morning...I have been up for the last 72+ hours making stuff for RPFS and I am not quite thinking like I should be in order to be more or less "rational" and if I get into this right now..you will NOT appreciate what I would have to say to YOU, no, NOT at all../// I am NOT one to suffer ignorance or fools in the slightest bit...Since YOU refuse to back up what you say..you can..well never mind... But I will say this.. Why do you refuse to answer my questions and requests as well as the other requests????. HOW DARE YOU question my dedication to teaching and directing those who wish to learn this craft?? I can truly onlyt speak for myslef.so tell kme..He who is all knowing and such..how many research articles..how many papers and how many books havbe you published on this subject???? Oh.. I forgot....How many folks have YOU personally taught?? I can honestly say that I have shown (from the statements that my publisher has provided me) at LEAST 125,000 plus folks that I have helped through my FIRST book alone , which by the way, has been the best selling book as far as "beginner bladesmithing books" go as far as .But then agian that doesn't mean "squat" to you...after all I am interested in ACTUALLY teaching folks in a way that they could actually forge a blade that will be soild and sound and NOT hurt themselves or an innocent bystander... so as far as what you have stated..doersnb't matter one bit is someone else gets hurt, maimed or disfigured..after all..in your own words.."it's all in "fun"..... Show me one (1) post on this (or ANY other forum) where I have "discouraged" ANYONE for doing ANYTHING (unless it was dangerous..no..wait...you don't care if it is dangerous or not,, for you don't care if anyone gets hurt..as long as they do it as a "hobby" right??) All I have ever said was to take things one step at a time and not to get ahead of one's self..you learn everything in steps..but since you don't seem to care... there is little I, or anyonme else can do to change your dogmatic thout process to change it... I WILL answer this in length in the AM as like I said earlier..I have been running on "overtime" way too long right now.. YOU made a personal attack on me..so you best get ready for it to come back at you..and in SPADES........ Dr James Hrisoulas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Bikes swords knives cars molten bronze anything elllsss you can think of, None of this has anything to do with my first comment, Yes swords is the overall topic of this forum, but if you actually read all my post, and think about what Ive said, the only over arching idea of all my post if that many people on this forum discourage and tell new folks that what ever they try is way out of there league. Like others, I think it'd be helpful if you pointed to some examples of the problem you're talking about. Because I honestly don't think there's a big problem with that, at least in instances that don't involve safety. Now, if you're going to point to threads where the expressed concern was safety, you ought to be willing to explain why responsible members here should disregard the safety of newbies. Or you ought to at least be able to point to some evidence that there wasn't really some kind of safety concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGmudbone Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I am most certainly not missing the point, swords.... point.... haha. I do know that anything made of tool steel that it tempered wrong can shatter into many sharp fragments. But people recommend making hammers or many other tools everyday, and they can shatter just a well as any sword. Maybe we just need to have a huge disclaimer on the front page of the site, ANY THING DONE IN ANY TYPE OF SHOP CAN BE DANGEROUS. On top of all of this anyone using any type of sword or knife is engaging in a dangerous activity. I am quit sure more people hurt themselves everyday with properly made knifes or swords than people ever do with a improperly forged or tempered one But I don't believe any of this is really what the majority of all these "warning" are about, most of them read much more like, I can do this and im some fancy shmancy master by self proclamation and no one ells should even try That type of attitude never helps anyone learn or have fun with there hobby well stated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 well stated You are referring back to post #19 and we have now moved on to post #37. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 WmH: If you want some suggestions as to how to get a "decent" kissaki forged..drop me a line...I covered that subject in book IV......... Dr James Hrisoulas... Dr. Hrisoulas, I eagerly look forward to your fourth book. Thank you for all that you have done to advance the knowledge of bladesmithing and patternwelding. When JPH speaks, I listen intensely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robakyo Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Dr. Hrisoulas, I eagerly look forward to your fourth book. Thank you for all that you have done to advance the knowledge of bladesmithing and patternwelding. When JPH speaks, I listen intensely. I second Mr. Einhorn's views. Anybody with the slightest intellectual curiousity would know your Name. The work that you have done for this Craft/Art is immeasurable. Before I knew who you were, I read the vast majority of your posts on this forum. The swords that you make are masterpieces. While reading the fifth edition of the Gun Digest Book of Knives, I did a double take. There was a chapter about you and the efforts that you made to make this Art form immediate and approachable for the aspiring Bladesmith. Your harrowing encounter with a criminal, threats of violence against you for revealing knowledge about the Craft, and the safety consciousness of your approach to Sword and Bladesmithing. I thank you for all that you have selflessly done for others. If you get into an argument with someone incapable of listening; someone too full of pride, you are just pissing into the wind. Hopefully, people like me, will listen to the views of people like You, Mr. Powers, Mr. Sells, and the myriad experienced Bladesmiths/Blacksmiths on this site. Mr. Powers lessons echo in my head constantly. I think he must be a great teacher! One question though, what ever happened to the "Sword of Septis"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 One question though, what ever happened to the "Sword of Sepsis"? glad you asked, I wondered if he just Flushed that idea ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 I am embarrassed to have posted on this thread..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robakyo Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 I am embarrassed to have posted on this thread..... Not wishing to incur your wrath, but could you please elaborate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 I believe what MLMartin is trying to say is that this thread started off for example with someone asking about making a sword, and if he ruined it. The very next two posts tell him to make something else first. This could be construed as discouraging the person. I believe what MLMartin would have preferred to see posted would be something more on the lines of ; A sword is not your typical beginners project, but let's see if we can help you make one with what you have. Not as Steve put it "if you have to ask...maybe you should get a little more work with simple projects first, learning how to forge metal." For some folks, putting down what they mean in the post is not that easy. Not everyone is a wordsmith So let's all play nice here. As to the reference about racing before you have a license, that isn't a real good one to use. Breedlove started setting world speed records at 15, and is looking at 850mph for his next attempt decades later. We have a local kid who is tearing up the track racing adults who still needs a ride to the races from his mom. There are kids as young as 5 who are racing in various forms. What do they have in common? Proper training,and supervision. IFI may be the closest thing to a mentor, or teacher someone may have. Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly agree that safety should be a prime concern. Just about everything we do nowadays involves some risk of injury; driving, workplace environments, and even eating can kill you. So instead of saying make something else, explain what can happen if the proper steps are not taken in making a blade (which he remarked is actually a long Dirk, not a sword after all) such as grain growth, internal cracks from improper forging temps, and do it in a manner that is more informative than what may sound more discouraging. Explain the proper methods, or reference the information needed to the person. The reason I say this is that if someone wants to make a knife, and everyone is telling them to make leaves, hooks, and other non sexy items, they may get discouraged and leave the forum all together. So what happens then? Now they have NO guidance whatsoever from folks on here that could have helped. Now that person may go ahead ,and make a blade while flying blind which could end up even worse for that individual. Just a word on posting - paragraphs, please use more paragraphs It makes reading long posts easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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