burning

[Aaron Gann]

well hello again here again with another question. when I was forging the other day I left it in too long and started burning it, early stage no real melting let it cool down no hammering. it is a spring clip from a railroad. so my question is. did I ruin my sword by that or can it still be saved?

[Steve Sells]

if you have to ask...maybe you should get a little more work with simple projects first, learning how to forge metal.

[ThomasPowers]

Cut off the part that was overheated and continue if you have enough left. If not Start over.

You will notice that Swordmaking is NOT a beginner's project. At least learn how to forge and heat treat
making knives where you won't throw away so much time and effort when you make a simple beginner's mistake.

You can actually learn faster with faster turn around time and get to make a good sword earlier than if you just do
swords from the start!

[MLMartin]

Yes you may have ruined the steel but don't worry about it, its just steel, steel is not vary expensive compared to the time to work it.

About not making a sword because your just a beginner, I would not worry about that at all. Certainly you will not make a masterpiece in the beginning work, but hey, who cares. Have FUN forging! I am assuming this is a hobby as probably 90% of the folks on this site are just hobbyist, and that's great!. Because its just a hobby theirs nothing lost as long as you have FUN forging. Your not trying to make a canon or a firearm that could fail horribly and cause risk to people, so theirs no need to worry about it going wrong. The guys above are right that you could probably learn more from starting vary simple and slowly working up, but its just a hobby so I would not worry about doing everything by the books. Don't let anyone tell you there is some way you have to work at a hobby.

Happy forging

[Dean Christman]

Don't let people get you down, if you want to make swords go the heck at it brother!

[pkrankow]

You can do some normalizations steps to refine the structure, but since this is your first project it will probably be a wall hanger. Continue on and hilt it simple. Don't do a full heat treat, just normalize. You will have opportunity to do better later.

I agree about taking time to make simple items like leaves and hooks, Christmas is coming and you can give a bunch of leaves as key fobs for gifts. You will improve in hammer control and technique.

Phil

[Aaron Gann]

thanks for the advice you're probably right. I've made a few knives but never got seriously into bladesmithing until last year. it is more of a hobby than anything though I wouldn't mind one day trying to sell a few. I've never actually burned the steel while making a blade I try to keep it at orange, so rather than just ignore it and keep going I want to try to make the best that I can. for clarification it's more of a long dirk than a sword. once again thank you so much for the advice

[ThomasPowers]

MLMartin15; I can tell *you* don't have any scars from SLOs breaking and injuring you or your friends! I don't know of anybody making a blade that hasn't at least *tried* cutting with it and failure of the blade doing so can be deadly!

My scars are luckily small; but I can still while away a boring meeting categorizing the ones on my hands...

A sword is a weapon and by definition weapons are *made* to be dangerous and so any possible failure modes introduced can only make it more dangerous!

In the LH world there was an example of a tang breaking and a blade flying off into the crowd---only by luck not hitting anyone! (and of course the TV commercial where the fellow demonstrating the katana has it shatter, it's on YouTube). Sure you will *never* use it; but what about your grandkids?

This is not to discourage people from trying; just to emphasize that you have to do it *right*!

[Steve Sells]

I still like the old saying, "entering a motor race when you have not yet gotten a basic drivers license" it can be done, but its not a good idea. I remember wanting to make a sword right off also, and like many, I thought people were trying to hold me back, to tell me how to enjoy my hobby. Well... to tell the truth, someone needed to cause I had no real clue. Listen to whom you wish, but I have posted photos of my blades, and I have warranties with all my blades, knives and swords, and no one has gotten hurt by my blades to the best of my knowledge.

I try to share what I have learned from much smarter men than I am.

[Rich Hale]

Maybe another view of this will help: what if; What if when you pull hot steel from the forge and you knew exactly where and how hard to hit it to make it the exact,(or close to) the shape you wish it to be?
What if you could take a piece of steel and shape it with a minimum of forgeing time and it was so clean and smooth that your finishing time was cut by at least two thirds? What if your forging fuel lasted a really lot longer than it used to? What if being able to do all of the above things gave you a great sense of pride in your work and gave you the mechanical ability and skills to allow you to move ahead mush farther in this craft than you thought possible?
All of the above is possible in likely less time than you imagine: You have to develop skills and that takes time. You have to learn wot each part of the anvil is capable of helping you in forging. The same thing with hammers. Different weights and shapes do different things. Pracitce with one hammer until you know exaclty wot it will doo an wot part of the anvil works best for that forging. And since I mentioned practice. This is a important thing to remember. only perfect practice is any good! If you do something wrong a 1000 times you may only get good at doing it wrong unless you make changes along the way. Short cuts in the beginning will slow the overall learning down a lot. When you have to go back to basics to get farther along it is time wasted. Here is an exercise and It is not meant to be at anyones expense. Read all of the forums here and learn from them, sltudy each question and figure out why it is a question at all. I read these daily to test my level of ability. If they ask how to forge something I think about how I would do that same item. I find that almost everyone of them that I answer, Yes I can do that, is the result of learning basics. I did not learn alot of this on my own. I wanted to cut the time spent down so I attended every workshop or clinic I could and read everything I could get my hands on. I paid others to watch me work and tell me wot I needed to do. I spent a lot of hours doing one thing until I got it down then moved onto the next. S hooks and tent pegs. chain links you n ame it I made them. I wrote about me to give you some insight as to why folks tell you to slow down and learn some then speed on ahead. Likely every one of them has been through at the minimum of wot I did and likey a lot more. MAny times wwe see new folks come on here and want to race with out a drivers license and sadly watch as they get discouraged and move onto other hobbies. Do wot you wish...Hope that some of wot you get for advice in this thread will help.

[MLMartin]

MLMartin15; I can tell *you* don't have any scars from SLOs breaking and injuring you or your friends! I don't know of anybody making a blade that hasn't at least *tried* cutting with it and failure of the blade doing so can be deadly!

My scars are luckily small; but I can still while away a boring meeting categorizing the ones on my hands...

A sword is a weapon and by definition weapons are *made* to be dangerous and so any possible failure modes introduced can only make it more dangerous!

In the LH world there was an example of a tang breaking and a blade flying off into the crowd---only by luck not hitting anyone! (and of course the TV commercial where the fellow demonstrating the katana has it shatter, it's on YouTube). Sure you will *never* use it; but what about your grandkids?

This is not to discourage people from trying; just to emphasize that you have to do it *right*!

Thats right! I do Not have scars all over my body from blundering up and breaking things, I do my best to use common sense when ever I do any physical task every day to avoid injury. I do have just a few small scars from mistakes, but not many. Anyone that chooses to forge metal is fully aware that its dangerous, The intense heat that comes off of steel at forging temperature are a direct link to the brain that what you are doing CAN be dangerous. Because of all the possible danger there is with metal working everyone needs to be careful, but that dose not mean everyone has to do it one set way. As said before most folks are only wanting to have fun forging, and if forging swords is whats fun to them, then that's what they should do. But I think its horrible how many people jump on new folks for "doing it wrong" when its just fun and games to anyone that dose it as a hobby. Yes some people will take the hobby vary seriously and heavily disciplined, but others will just attempt to forge what ever comes to mind that day, and theirs nothing wrong with that. other than something that can catastrophically explode if done wrong, IE gunpowder. yes a sward can brake and hurt some one, hammers also some times chip and hurt people, anvils chip and hurt people, fire burns people, hitting your hand with a hammer hurts and just about anything in the shop can hurt or scar you if your not careful.

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

Just a thought here, and it goes WAY back in the craft. After heat treat (quenching AND tempering) I have always "throw tested" all of my swords just to add a considerably degree of certainty that everything went as it should. This consists of raising the blade over your head and hurling it horizontally, at the concrete floor. Yes, it is a risk that you may discover you did something wrong in the heat treat, but much better it shatter like glass in the relative safety of the shop than when you are swinging it at a roll of tatami or "shudder" a sapling tree. Just my 2 cents on the matter based on an age-old method that evolved from a time when the failure of your blade almost certainly meant your death.

[nonjic]

Dont worry about overheating the steel, so long as its not burnt (sparkling)

Take an old file, and grossly overheat it and quench in a bucket of cold water. Snap it (if its not already broken in 2) look how big the grain is, it will be like brown sugar.

Now take the broken piece of file with the massive grain and heat it untill a magnet wont stick, and not much hotter. Let it cool slowly in still air. Repeat another couple of times. Then heat just above non magnetic, water quench and break again. The grain will be super fine.

Forging a sword is dead easy. Heat treating is the important bit. (and grinding them well is a *****) :lol:

[ThomasPowers]

John; so "cottage cheesing" is OK? Happens for some alloys quite before burning temps...

I agree that forging is the *fun* part, grinding and polishing is the "work" part and getting proper heat treat is the knowledge part---along with designing a blade that actually "works" and is not a metal club...

[Tiapan]

not making any comment on the sword crafting bit but a lot of people have been sent to the afterlife by metal clubs of one form or another, just a thought, because many battle swords did not have much of an edge at all (depending completely on style and era of use, small finer blades tended to be sharper)

[ThomasPowers]

Well except for oddities such as the estoc and some late rapiers that were all point; medieval swords were edged and sharp; that they were blunt "clubs" is a common fallacy just like they weighed 30 pounds!

[Steve Sells]

Mlmartin15 seems to be missing the point, the actions and risks of making swords are no different than making most anything else. Its when people try to USE that object as a sword that the cuts and deaths occur. That is what we are trying to warn about.

[Tiapan]

I guess sharp to me is a relative term. Most Blades i see these days, particularly knives, people put almost a razor edge on (aka shaving sharp) but you would not want that kind of edge for everyday use on a larger blade, especially heavier ones. And yes a lot of people think that older weapons were heavy, and we know from historical evidence this was not normally the case, with a few exceptions, for instance the large bearded axe, not exactly the smallest weapon. But a very thin edge on a heavy blade, (and by heavy i mean a fairly wide cutting weapon like older style broadswords, or Falchions would end with a lot of damage to that fine edge. Oh they were plenty sharp, but not sharp like a Knife is i guess what i was trying to say.

[MLMartin]

Mlmartin15 seems to be missing the point, the actions and risks of making swords are no different than making most anything else. Its when people try to USE that object as a sword that the cuts and deaths occur. That is what we are trying to warn about.

I am most certainly not missing the point, swords.... point.... haha. I do know that anything made of tool steel that it tempered wrong can shatter into many sharp fragments. But people recommend making hammers or many other tools everyday, and they can shatter just a well as any sword. Maybe we just need to have a huge disclaimer on the front page of the site, ANY THING DONE IN ANY TYPE OF SHOP CAN BE DANGEROUS. On top of all of this anyone using any type of sword or knife is engaging in a dangerous activity. I am quit sure more people hurt themselves everyday with properly made knifes or swords than people ever do with a improperly forged or tempered one

But I don't believe any of this is really what the majority of all these "warning" are about, most of them read much more like, I can do this and im some fancy shmancy master by self proclamation and no one ells should even try

That type of attitude never helps anyone learn or have fun with there hobby

[basher]

yes its all dangerous !!
............ and fun!!

however there is an added responsibility inherent with swords ......they are weapons that are sharp.....in modern times and also on the large part "historically " sharp.
There is a responsibility to make a weapon that does not injure its owner due to a fault of the maker , the user has to understand what a sharp sword can do...thats their responsibility.

There is also a responsibility for makers who know what they are doing to advise those who do not (yet) know about the pitfalls inherent with making 3 foot razor sharp potential projectile launchers.......

There are many rite ways to make a sword....... but you will find that people seem to agree on the wrong ways more often than they do the rite!!




P.s Reading back through that post I used the word responsibility a lot ...i guess that is my point.

[Steve Sells]

...But I don't believe any of this is really what the majority of all these "warning" are about, most of them read much more like, I can do this and im some fancy shmancy master by self proclamation and no one ells should even try

That type of attitude never helps anyone learn or have fun with there hobby

YOU sir need to show us photos of your swords. and start telling people how you make them, rather than whining about us who do actually teach. I feel this insult of yours has gone far enough. No one here has made any such statement, only in your mind. We would not have this section here if people were not sharing how to make them. If someones ego thinks they have to be able to jump in and make anything with out the needed skills learned first, that's your problem. I feel you are clueless about swords making, I challenge you to prove otherwise.

[ThomasPowers]

Failure mode for a hammer---shrapnel and we commonly advise folks to wear safety glasses and a leather apron in the shop. If you don't; well stupid *should* hurt!

Failure mode for a sword *sharp* pieces flying through the air; hard for people watching to avoid and chance of fatality MUCH higher than with hammer face shrapnel!

I don't lump everything into "harmless" and "dangerous" and consider everything inside the category to be the same---Jaywalking is dangerous; but I don't then suggest people try russian roulette---because after all Jaywalking is dangerous too!

We generally don't tell people NOT to do something but often suggest they learn the basics FIRST so they can do it with a greater degree of safety! (And know *what* they need to be aware of) Telling folk that their first driving experience should not be in a formula 1 race is not the same as telling them not to drive.

As for my background, I've been smith for around 30 years now and actually spent a year working with one of the top professional swordmakers in the USA back then. 6 days a week in the shop, no pay but 2 meals a day with the family. His father was a research metallurgist so I got both the practical and theoretical aspects---and learned that I enjoyed the craft MUCH more as a hobby than as a business; a blessing as I consider that I learned it the easy way rather than half killing myself and going into bankruptcy trying to run it as a business on my own.

I'll be taking two forges to a week long campout so any followups will be after Feb 22

[JPH]

Hello:

I was going to stay totally out of this but now I can't bring myself to..

Swordmaking...REAL swordmaking is NOT like making a big knife. I have seen too many "big knives" that are what I call a SLO (Sword Like Object). Swords have many subtle refinements that knives do not really need.

So like Brother Steve requested (I taught his teacher BTW...)...MLmartin15..show us what you have made...we are waiting. Now I for one take offense to being called some "fancy schmacy master".. Well son I AM A MASTER...I did not "give" myself that title..I had that honour bestowed upon me by my peers years ago in this industry and I have the education, the skills and real world experience to BACK IT UP...What do YOU have?

I have been swinging a hammer almost 50 years. I hold a Doctoral Degree in Metallurgy, I have literally written the books on bladesmithing.

Brother Thomas, whom I have never met in the flesh, (one day I hope to..) is a HIGHLY EXPERIENCED smith in his own right as are many others here as well.

I am one of the strongest supporters of others learning his craft, in fact I have been referred to as one of the ten most "influential bladesmiths" in the last 50 years. How many people have you taught?

You want my Bone Fides? Well these are just the highlights, I will keep it short and sweet.

Author: "The Complete Bladesmith"
"The Master Bladesmith"
"The Pattern Welded Blade" (which was the FIRST book ever published dealing solely with pattern welding knives and swords)

Right now I am working (almost done in fact) on book IV which will be a "monster" of a tome..dealing with Northern Eureopan pattern welding techniques as well as Eastern methods and a lot more "fun stuff" that bladesmiths can add to their skills lists if they want.

Below you will find some photos of some my "typical work" (well the Japanese stuff isn't typical for me..I hate doing it but I owe a debt to a very dear friend not to let this skill die out)...I make and sell around 700 assorted pieces a year, ranging from simple rail road spike knives, to pattern welded swords and most everything in between. Mostly as far as blades go..I am pretty much self taught although I do have a strong blacksmithing background thanks to my mentor and dear friend Herr Hauffmann, my Amish German neighbor when I was a child living in NW Pennsylvania. I owe that gentleman a lot. He was the one that got me started in all of this.. So yeah, you can call me a "fancy schmancy master"..but I have the skills, paid the dues, done the research and everything else to BACK IT UP... A lot of folks on this site can say the same thing...what about you?

You want to run with the big dogs, well you got it... Don't call down the thunder and expect not to get it.

Have you ever seen what happens when an inproperly made sword blade breaks? I have..I saw first hand a 14" shard go into a child's face 25 feet away. Luckily for the victim it just hit a cheek and not an eye. And how was that sword made? By using an old leaf spring that was hammered straight without heat, worked cold using information gleaned from a now infamous internet site/article.

Now I am not one to blow my own horn, anyone that knows me personally can attest to that, but you called down the thunder and now you got it...

Yes this is hazardous work..all metalworking is. You dance with the Devil and you will get burned sooner or later. So you work safe as you can, the best way you can. Sometimes you simply can not prevent something from happening, but you can help lessen the impact/injury. I know that (sadly) first hand and I have the scars to proove it.

So put an end to this and put up some photos of what you have made..show us your work and if you are as good as you think/feel you are..so be it. Until then I suggest you end the name calling and insulting tones..

Dr. JP Hrisoulas
(If you want to know exactly who you are dealing with..google my last name..)

[lanchie76]

when will people learn?

this is a place of learning for most people (thats why they joined) and you dont get help by insulting people.

the major advisers on this forum dont get paid for this, they are here because they like helping people and want to see this trade/hobby continue. they are not diplomats, they tell it how they see it. sometimes that comes across abit blunt but if you do some research on this forum you will see that most questions asked by new people are mostly the same and are asked all the time. these people dont have to reply to the threads, they dont know the people and its not their problem if someone gets hurt but they do anyway. take their advise or dont but please show them the respect they are due for taking the time to answer the questions asked.

im new to black smithing/blade smithing but the reason i am saying this is because i read this forum at least daily, it give me knowledge and inspiration and i'd hate to see these advisers stop posting and losing their expertise/knowledge from this forum.

BTW if one of these advisers said something was dangerous i would listen

Ben

[nonjic]

Dr Jim, you are top of the tree with this stuff! dont feel you need to explain yourself.

To those just getting started, show pictures of your work, and explain what you are doing, the experienced guys will be more than happy to point you towards the right path. The problem ive found is everytime I learn somthing about swords it just opens up another 5 unanswered quetions in my mind!

There are far to many 'keyboard commandos' out there. I have respect for people who go and try, no matter how badly, and then ask questions.

Theres no myth and mystery to making swords, its a lot of quite complicated sciency stuff, combined with very good manual dexterity. If you cant flat grind, and heat treat a 10" knife perfectly your wasting your time trying to make a decent sword.