Working Thick Steel by Hand?

[kraythe]

I am facing a problem with my forging. Right now I am having issues trying to work with 1" or thicker metal and often high carbon steel in trying to make anvil tools. I cant afford to buy a power hammer and even if I could I am not sure my neighbors will be happy to see it. I am worried one of the jerks will call the cops or something if I used it after 9:00 pm which is often when I get a chance to do some smithing. I would like to get a fly press but then I dont know what size and 2 grand is only going to be in the budget if I get a big bonus from work this year or a big tax refund. So there you have it, I want to work with heavy metal billets, hardy shafts and so on by hand.

Right now the best I can do is use a 4# hammer and slam the crap out of it in 50 heats and that is getting tedious. Even Swaging the shafts through the anvil is becoming tiresome and when working billets of pattern welded steel, drawing them back out is the definition of unfun. Furthermore, I like to work with old jackhammer bits to make tools because those bits are great steel and thicker than coil springs but that steel is murder to move by hand, often fishmouths when I am trying to make hardie shafts.

So I am asking for suggestions on how to do this better without fishmouthing everything or blowing a fortune that i dont posess right now. (and if I had a grand I would probably buy an ozark pattern 400# anvil anyway). Anyway. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Lets say the budget is 500$ and under.

[Kenny O]

I can relate, I have been pondering the same issue. The fishmouth is aggravating as well. I' ve been telling my wife she is going to be my striker, she's ready.

[Dave Budd]

I'm too poor to buy a power hammer, though its been on my wish list for a while for exactly the same reason.

I got myself a flypress (norton no.5) a year or so ago and I can happily work down upto 1 1/4" round with it, anything bigger is getting silly hard work but I have gone upto 1 3/4" square, all tool steel (I don't use much mild in my normal work). The flypress is cheap to buy 2nd hand, cheaper to run (free) and the tooling is easy to make yourself

That said, I would dearly like to have a power hammer!

[John B]

I can relate, I have been pondering the same issue. The fishmouth is aggravating as well. I' ve been telling my wife she is going to be my striker, she's ready.

Try either working the end of the bar back into itself as you go to help prevent the fish lips, sort of like upsetting, but as you go,

or start forging the end at a steeper angle down to the size of the hardie hole, then work back from that end.

If the end is in the hardie hole, does it really matter if you have an uneven end?

[Mainely,Bob]

If noise is a problem use a press.Either electric/hydraulic (quieter)or air/hydraulic if you have a compressor that doesn`t make too much noise.
After 9 at night even working with a striker will cause the neighbors to take notice in most urban environments.
If you like urban living then the long term answer is to move next to a neighbor who makes more noise than you do and has been there a while.

[Judson Yaggy]

There are definitely $500 fly presses out there, you will just have to spend some dedicated time searching for one (or waiting for the right one to come around). If your budget will stretch to $1k you could get one of the used ones from Rhode Island that are always for sale on ebay, including shipping. Try the terms "screw press" and "tryout press" in your searches. Don't forget you might need a way to get a 1500# tool off of a big truck and into your shop.

[MLMartin]

where is your forge or shop? a thick section of insulation over the walls will cut down the noise greatly!

[Rhyfelwr]

I have been forging 1" and 1"1/2 on my anvil with a 6# sledge with a short haft! Wears your forearms out but moves the steel, I've been making hardy tools recently.

I did get the fish lips on one piece but I just heated it and hammered them back in.. Not the prettiest work but I don't have the money (or the shop) for a power hammer so I make do.

[Timothy Miller]

Why don't you guys pair up and strike for each other? Or find a buddy locally to help.

[Bryce Masuk]

things you can do to help are work the steel as hot as possible and maybe weld a bar on instead of using tongs on a short piece, or use long bars instead of tongs

get a striker or taper the end like people said or use a 8lb hammer with a short handle (also good for straightening things)

working as hot as possible is your best bet or else your going to hurt yourself doing too much of this kind of stuff, teaming up is the best thing you can do.

hit hard and stay loose

[maddog]

Some more alternatives: Arc welding a shank on. Using mild steel when appropriate not only is it softer but it can be worked at welding heat. Doing the heavy reduction with a aggressive fuller or a pair of fullers in a spring too. Forging from leafspring with a flat shank that fits the hardy hole on the diamond. Making a removeable insert for the hardy to reduce it to 3/4" or even 5/8" so that the forgings are smaller.

What's so bad about fishlips? I just let them form and then grind or cut off the end.

I use a 5# hammer for the initial knockdown of heavy stock. I am very careful with my technique when I do. It's easy to damage one's arm.

Also there are plans for a small home built rolling mill which is idea for drawing out. I don't know it's capacity though.

[EWCTool]

I think this would be one of the biggest dilemmas for modern day smiths not on a large budget. I took a six pound splitting maul and ground the edge down to make a straight pein hammer. This reduced the weight slightly, and allowed for the metal to be moved with the effectiveness of a straight pein with the power from a heavy hammer. As stated above, you have to be careful not to tear up your hand and forearm up when using bigger hammers, but it will get the job done.

[Dave Hammer]

If you have a welder, you should be able to fabricate a simple power hammer for less than $500. If you don't have a welder, take a welding class and build your power hammer as the project.

To add to a previous post, watch for a power hammer. Occasionally, a Little Giant hammer (or that type of hammer)can be purchased very reasonably.

[dablacksmith]

i would build a power hammer and figure to do this work earlier in the day and save the late nite forgeing for the hand hammer. there are several plans for makeing different power hammer .fly presses are handy but not much good for drawing compared to a power hammer . ive got bolth and they are bolth handy!also keep a eye out for a old power hammer depending on where you are they can sometimes be had cheap. you might have to repair it but ... good luck!

[gearhartironwerks]

think hydraulic press with a 2 stage pump. it may whine a little, but won't keep you neighbors up with the thumping of a power hammer.

JE

[Kenny O]

This is some good stuff right here! I assumed fishlips was a sign of poor technique, not a too small hammer.
I was thinking of a treadle hammer, what about the Grasshopper? I guess I could move that question to the hammer section.

much appreciation for all the very valuable information!:)

[DKForge]

I know a treadle hammer does not a power hammer, striker, or fly press replace but would that be another alternative for kraythe? I would think it would be quieter to keep the neighbors happy and less expensive. I have never used one so I am just throwing it out there for others to jump in who have.

[MattBower]

There are real limits to what you're going to be able to do, given the realities of your living situation. Hard to accept, I know -- I had to face the same thing myself.

That said, have you thought about building one of the mini-hydraulic (really air over hydraulic) presses. They're not the most capable little things, but they're pretty cheap and they don't take up a ton of space. If neighbors are a problem, you might have to find a way to quiet the compressor.

[Frank Turley]

Way back in the 1970's, a German trained smith named Joe Volz, would come to our ABANA conferences and share his knowledge. One time in New York, he hollered at us all, "A blacksmith without a helper is incomplete!"

[Bryce Masuk]

Way back in the 1970's, a German trained smith named Joe Volz, would come to our ABANA conferences and share his knowledge. One time in New York, he hollered at us all, "A blacksmith without a helper is incomplete!"

No doubt you still cant do things the way you would with a helper, the problem is you need to find someone who is as obsessed as you are and you need to be able to pay them.

Its funny because most people think that "skills" in society would be the basis in which you should be paid to a certain degree that might be right but the truth its more about how much money you generate or how close you are to the hand that pays the money.

I can imagine that if someone worked for you for 4 years and you are paying them as much as you can say 22-30 dollars per hour when they could be doing something easier and get the same pay, (like driving a truck or whatever) eventually they will give into the easier thing for more money and less effort unless of course they truly have the passion to be a blacksmith.

a power hammer or a press with a lot of tooling can do nearly anything involving shouldering upsetting and drawing out if you are inventive.

look at the work of yellin and fritz kuhn and much of that stuff can be done better and faster by skilled men, as many as it takes like a rivet crew working as a team perfectly timed.

I try to imagine that anything can be done in a instant, if only we are ready.

It goes for anything and everything in life, whether you sing a song, paint a picture, or catch a football.

the real trick of all of this with blacksmithing is that much of it you cant do without 2 people or more or done with any power tools it can only be done by hand, so somehow the smith's must have some type of bond or experiance working together with others in this fashion, too bad not much is around for us as north american's to do this, our society is mostly based around people working in massive organizations entirely separate from other people.

on wikipedia it mention that there are nearly 900 000 people that in in the kami caste in nepal, whether they are all blacksmithing doing other things now is something that I really dont know about, maybe these people are getting striking experiance because they make most of there stuff from leaf springs they are probley hot splitting them from full size and drawing them down pretty close to the finished blade because electricity isnt that avalible to everyone out there and a torch is probley expensive compared to labour.

they may make some amazing ironwork that we know little of over there,

[Iron Clad]

Don't forget to use the bick of your anvil to draw down and move material, it acts like a large fuller. I don't have a powerhammer either, a large son with a sledge works good though.

[lbas]

Hi,

I suggest a two-pronged approach. (1) Make a hardy hole reducer to say 3/4" square to reduce your hammering requirements considerably to get started. Square tubing forges and tapers just fine as does pipe. Weld on a flange at the top if that's the way for you. Old rear axles are 1045 which is fairly easy to hammer, gets pretty hard, and the axles are of different sizes and (as I remember) tapered so you could eyeball a section to use that wouldn't require too much hammering to get to shape. OK. Your life's a lot easier right now, you get some hardy tools, and most importantly, you get to practice. Takes lots of practice.

(2) 'Cause well, if you're crazy about this stuff, you simply gotta learn to bring the hammer down. Not trying to be funny. And it takes a lot of practice, practicing the right things, working up to being comfortable with a heavier hammer. For me that was six pounds on a shorter handle than the others which were 2 kg and 1 kg. I hammered a lot with the 2 kg before I was comfortable with the 6 lb. These things take time. Oh, we filed the hammer faces to a slight dome, reduces the possibility of edge marks and concentrates the force of the blow on a smaller area. After a while you can work with the paving breaker bits and not have to be overly strong to do it. Far edge of the anvil makes a really powerful and controllable fuller. Well near one too for different work.

Frank Turley knows how to hammer and if you're not close to him could recommend others as good examples to watch and learn from. A power hammer's nice, a flypress is too, but there's no substitute for having the basic skills. If nothing more as a reference point. And there's a satisfaction in the process of doing it on the anvil that I don't get if I do it another way.

Frank won't remember me but I remember him, and thanks for reminding me about Joe Volz. I enjoyed him a lot.

Good luck!
life begins at sixty (lbas)

[John McPherson]

The one thing that has not been suggested here is some sort of guillotine tool. A good one, with a spring return and a few sets of dies, is no more expensive than a decent post vise or anvil, and every bit as useful to a lone smith.

They were invented precisely because good help(ers) is hard to find. And train. And harder to find when you need one, after hours and on weekends.

As for mechanical assistance, even Peter Ross has an electric blower and 25lb Little Giant in his shop, because he works alone. And he mostly does small hardware items, and is mostly working real wrought iron, which moves easily.

[Marksnagel]

Don't forget to use the bick of your anvil to draw down and move material, it acts like a large fuller. I don't have a powerhammer either, a large son with a sledge works good though.

I agree with Ironclad,

I cannot afford a powerhammer but I have a very strong son and a 12 lb sledge. We just need to work on his aim/control a little. I save the big things for when he comes home.

A friend just gave me a broken coil spring off his crop sprayer. It's 1 1/4". I thanked him and scratched my head. "We're gunna need a bigger hammer." Never turn down free stuff.

Mark<><

[Frank Turley]

Just a little tip, whether you use a guillotine or not. When making a tenon, as a hardie shank for example, it saves work to taper the piece first. Work on the shoulders second. You'll have less material to neck down.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools