Monster Anvils - Why?

[maddog]

So the buzz has gone and we are now talking reality? Let’s do some of that.

The reality is that this thread is not about finances, mismanaged businesses or layoffs it’s about the anvil mass, why and how it might be important. But since it seems to have been hijacked by sour, mean spirited rants on the evils of thinking, I have a few things to say.

Bajajoaquin and I both went to some effort to develop and present this material. It was done in the spirit of making a useful contribution to the discussion. A very interesting and useful discussion. To have this dismissed out of hand with the words “spread sheets be xxxxxx” is rude. Xxxx rude! And with what justification? That someone once misused this very fine tool? This is like saying “hammers be xxxxxx” because you once saw someone hit his thumb. Is that a realistic assessment of hammers? This followed by another post frankly gloating over the fact that someone had xxxxxx on the parade is unpleasant and nasty.

Spreadsheets are wonderful tools. They are heavily used in engineering and science as well as business. A great many of the products you use and depend on were designed with them and are the better for it. If you don’t know how to use one or even what they can do, that’s your loss. Are you proposing that businesses don’t do any accounting and just keep their money in a shoebox? Or perhaps they should do their books with pencil and paper? All accounting software is essentially specialized spreadsheets. Should they not make plans or forecasts at all and just take it as it comes?

Reality is that most products today are deeply engineered and that means serious mathematical modeling up front by the “knowers” who learned this stuff in school. In fact many of today’s products would simply not be possible with this kind of work. The very computers that people use to get online and rant about the evils of theory depend critically on just that - deep theory . Many deep theories. Among them Quantum Mechanics. (no that does not involve tiny wrenches). Modern engineering even more than science or perhaps any other discipline has produced a long series of fantastic accomplishments. To contemptuously dismiss the men who do this work is peevishness not realism.

Practical experience only goes so far. When the US wanted to land a man on the moon, who had the necessary practical experience that could be consulted? How many times will your bridges have to fail or your aircraft fall out of the sky before you have the necessary experience to build one that works? The bizarre concoctions for welding and tempering that were part of the lore of blacksmithing were all fruits of practical experience. Practical experience can blind you to possibilities that seem to contradict it. It was practical experience that told us the Earth is stationary and that the sun rotates around it every day. After all, if the earth is spinning why don’t things fly off? It took a significant mathematical effort by men like Galileo and Copernicus to see things clearly. It was from this work that an understanding of gravity finally evolved. An effort that involved years and years of meticulous recording of astronomical observations and then scrutinizing them for deep patterns. Yes, spreadsheets and bean counting!

Of course theory must be tempered with experience and of course it must be used wisely with some skepticism and a clear understanding of its limits. Of course there are idiots out there who misuse their tools and there are times when even the best design efforts go wrong. Practical experience and theory should work together. An industry where the trades and the engineers are at war with each other is essentially a circular firing squad. What else do you call it when a craftsman thinks it’s funny to hand an unsuspecting office worker a piece of iron at black heat and watch him burn? They should be trying to make each other look good, not bad. They should be helping each other to avoid pitfalls not leading them into traps. I am not surprised many of these industries fail. That’s a dose of reality.

Reality is that without engineers and their theory to design our products we would be a third world country. Developing countries go to great lengths to train their engineers at first rate schools in the West. Successful industries compete for the best engineering graduates and at considerable cost. Why don’t at least some of them wise up , hire a bunch of “doers” in hard hats and save a bundle?

Reality is that after several pages of discussion in this thread, much of it by people with a great deal of practical, professional experience using anvils and power hammers we hadn’t gotten to a close understanding of how things worked. We understood that that bigger the anvil the less it moved and that meant less work wasted. We realized there must be a point of diminishing returns but no one knew where that was. Grant pointed out that 100% efficiency was impossible since it required an infinitely massive anvil and also suggested that the relationship was quadratic. Which it is in a general sense. But no one could answer the simple question, “should I spend the extra money for a 400# anvil, or go the extra expense for the power hammer with a 2000# block?” until Bajajoaquin posted his spreadsheet. Not that his numbers are the last word but they are a big step forward.

And how would you get this information otherwise? It wasn’t available as ready knowledge from those with the practical experience. Short of lining up a series of power hammers and anvils and having the same worker repeat the same tasks on each machine, how else? There seem to be quite a few power hammers out there with seriously mismatched hammers and anvils. Perhaps the fruits of seat of the pants engineering by people who don’t like spread sheets.

I didn’t do the math. Newton did. I did some simple manipulations to specialize his equations to this question. I presented my results with some skepticism though I would bet fighting money that they give a useful insight into what is going on. I stated that I would have been more confident if they had come from a mechanical engineer who has practical experience in analyzing this kind of problem and applying the equations. Newtons equations have been around for 500 years and are well tested by practical experience. They give good results in non relativistic applications. The numbers that I got are consistent with industry practice. So how was this unrealistic? Why on earth shouldn’t we use this resource?

Bajajoaquin when presenting his excellent spreadsheet, was very careful to list his working assumptions. How do you get more real than that?

Mathematical models are very much like drawings. A drawing can give you a great deal of insight. It can show relationships clearly and even point out ones that you didn’t suspect existed. It allows you play "what if?". It has limits. A drawing is not the same as the real thing and if you forget that you will have problems but would you design anything more than a trivial project without some kind of drawing or at least a sketch?

A mathematical model is more abstract and more versatile but more difficult to interpret, hence the need for things like spreadsheet presentations. When you multiply WxL to figure out how much carpet you need for your living room you are using a mathematical model for surface area. What happens in reality is never quite WxL. The walls aren’t quite straight, the floor is bumpy and even your ruler is not that accurate. But you get results that are close enough to be very useful. If you forget the limitations of this model and use WxL for a problem like covering thousands of acres of farmland with fertilizer you might be seriously off because the model doesn’t account for the curvature of the earth. Something you can ignore when carpeting your living room. The equations for elastic collisions are not very complicated, but even the most sophisticated mathematical models are just like this. They are simplifications and approximations that are extremely useful when used wisely.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I agree Maddog,
this has gotten sidetracked.

It probably has some to do with the fact that we all have probably been in situations where we were asked to do something by a higher up that we knew was going to fail, and there was no listening to our advice.

ANY tool if misused can lead to failure, and sometimes the old ways are not always the best. When working with others it is important to get everyone's input so the best method of doing the job can be accomplished. The office may have one idea, yet the worker may have some insight to another method that they didn't know about. Sometimes it works the other way around.

As to just in time mfg. Sometimes it is what works best for that application. With the shop I work in, we try not to keep too much customer inventory on the shelf because we get rev changes on parts quite often. When that happens we sometimes have to scrap what is on the shelf, if it cannot be reworked. With Copper Beryllium alloys running $21-$23 a pound, that can be some costly scrap.

There is no one method of doing business, as there are too many variables. Put them on a spreadsheet and take a look for yourself

Now lets get back to BIG ANVILS ARR ARR ARRR!

[dkunkler]

Excellent commentary Maddog.

[monstermetal]

I like anvils, Big anvils I dont care if they is mo better, I still like them cuz they big and shiny and heavy.. I like anvils...

[Mainely,Bob]

Different outlooks about different things,that`s what makes this place so great.
Some of us look at this like a classroom,some like a boardroom.I tend to look at it like a group of guys all leanin` around the bed of a truck talking about what`s in it and maybe what`s in the yard around it.
Some of us have longer attention spans than others,doesn`t make us wrong(or rude) it just makes us different.
Just cause you drive a Ford and I drive a Chevy doesn`t mean we can`t both park in the same drive and talk about stuff in the backs of both our trucks.
Sorry if I hit a nerve thee Maddy,that wasn`t my intent.
Still think doin`in steel beats knowin` on paper any day of the week though. ;)

[fciron]

Maddog

If my 'user error' comment was interpreted as gloating I apologize. It was intended as a defense of spreadsheets. I offered my thanks for the number crunching earlier and I also felt that a blanket attack on spreadsheets was rude. Particularly since we had just been given a good example of their usefulness.

Lewis

[bigfootnampa]

Despite the obvious fact that many of us (yes me too) have faced frustration with poor management decisions... one of the things that has set America apart and made this country a great one, has been a much greater acceptance of feedback from the lower ranks of life than is found in the more traditional societies. One of my favorite anecdotes about that is the story of the American troops fighting through the hedgerows in WWII. They were having quite a slog getting through and one problem was that it was difficult for the tanks to maneuver to support the infantrymen. A former cab driver from New York, sergeant Curtis Culin, gathered steel blades from the, now abandoned, beach defenses and welded them to his tank to help him breach the hedgerows. His invention was dramatically successful and the division immediately adopted it and produced large numbers of similarly equipped tanks. Even in Desert Storm, a couple of generations later, similarly equipped tanks were being used. So there are success stories where management listens and learns from the ranks and failure stories where management did NOT listen... this seems pretty predictable... TEAMWORK triumphs! ARROGANCE stumbles! A very old lesson, still being learned! So the hammer says to the anvil "I do the work, you just sit there". The anvil says to the hammer "OH YEAH, just try working without me then". TEAMWORK is powerful!

[KTB]

My one and only anvil weights 100 lbs. so I guess I need to hitch up my pink panties and go home.

[bajajoaquin]

I am not so worried about the derailed thread. It's a discussion forum and discussions have lives of their own. We dont all agree, and this would be a boring place if we did.

On the topic of knowledge work versus physical work, I encourage people to read Shop Class As Soul Craft[\i]. It's written by a guy with a degree in physics and a graduate degree in political science who decided to quit his think tank job and start a motorcycle repair shop.

I think he accurately describes the issue as a transfer of working knowledge from the individual worker to the systems of the corporation. From that flows the process of outsourcing and other things discussed here.

But back to anvils. Some have touched the complexity of the math describing the actual hammer blow. We had a thread on hardness and rebound. Does anyone have any thoughts on the combination of the two?

Some posters have commented that the fabricated mild steel anvils feel dead or lack rebound. With the plastic deformation of hit steel under the hammer, how much would that affect actual work efficiency? I guess it also gets to the question brought up other times about the difference between anvils of varied quality.

[monstermetal]

Stuart, Would you recommend pursuing a physics degree prior to seeking out a master to apprentice with? Im not being a smartass, I really am curious if there is enough practical application of theory to warrant the time it would take... I mean its too late for me but maybe some young high school smith should take a physics prep class with the idea it would be a valuable addition to his apprenticeship

Oh.... And I like big anvils... The physics that I know relating to big anvils is "Objects at rest, tend to stay at rest" Them big suckers is hard to move, just sweep around it...

[ThomasPowers]

I work surrounded by folks with doctorates in astro physics; some can even tie their own shoes! Actually they are generally a widely learned crew and fun to hang out with, though as I am an IT guy I'm not of their caste (and the only blacksmith among them---I'm doing some smithing work for some of them though, got a request for a cubical hook for Christmas).

On degrees as helping smithing: The astrophysical research org I belong to is based at a university and so I've taught several folks with/going for metallurgical degrees and have found out that having such a degree doesn't seem to help much until it comes to heat treat and even then you need to remind them that the Manuals are based on square inch cross sections and so you need to allow for thin sections in bladesmithing. Very interesting to get a call from a Professor of Metallurgy to come troubleshoot their kids forging project---needed a deeper fire for the most part. (I'm hoping to lure that Professor into doing some smithing. When I mentioned I planned to do a bloomery run over the Holidays he was quite interested!)

[maddog]

Bob, thanks, I'm okay now. Deep breaths. Think happy happy place....

fciron, I thought your comment about user error was on the money.

Another comment you made about the shape of the anvil is IMO very much to the point. The analysis above assumed an idealized simplified set up. The anvil is somehow magically suspended in the air and all its mass reacts simultaneously, sort of like hitting a solid cone of steel on its pointy end. There is no consideration of support or shape.

I think in the case of power hammers, because of their design, this is reasonably close to what actually happens. With an anvil however you are essentially striking a fat bar in the middle. The center goes down, the ends fold up, the anvil vibrates and energy is wasted. Consider an extreme case in which a 400# "anvil" is shaped as long piece of 2" sq. Striking it in the center is not going to give you 400#'s worth of reaction. So the length of the anvil, the thickness of its waist and such are going to have a significant effect on its "effective mass". A Peter Wright should be more efficient when struck in the middle of its face than a Hay Budden of the same size. Similar considerations should apply to working on the horn or the tail.

I don't have the knowledge to work out a quantitative analysis of this effect. Looking at beam deflections might give some insight. To really be able to compare a PW vs an HB pound for pound and dollar for dollar would require the use of a finite element program. Something MEs use all the time. A finite element mesh is really a kind of 3D spreadsheet

The other significant issue is the base and how the anvil is mounted on it. It seems to me that some mounting schemes could increase the effective mass of the anvil and others have little effect.

[Mainely,Bob]

Seems like somebody asked that same type of question a while back.If memory serves he asked about all the different types of bases and the effects of solid(like stumps and steel) vs non-solid(like a sand filled box)bases.I also seem to remember that the solid base replies greatly outnumbered the "Sandmen" because all the sandies failed to reply.I remember all this not because I have a photographic memory(don`t I wish),I remember this because that guy was me and I still haven`t forgiven the "sandies" for shunning me.That`s OK,I know who you are. ;)

[bajajoaquin]

There were some comments over on Anvilfire about stacking plates to make an anvil, and how that can absorb energy, being less effective than a truly solid mass of the same weight. I think that there's something like that at play with anvil stands.

With a very heavy, very rigid steel base, I imagine it could contribute significantly to the effective mass of the anvil. But it would have to be rigid approaching that of an anvil from face through the waist, otherwise you'd be talking bout losses as described in Maddog's post.

If someone wants to come up with an equation, I'd be happy to build another spreadsheet!

[maddog]

Stuart, Would you recommend pursuing a physics degree prior to seeking out a master to apprentice with? Im not being a smartass, I really am curious if there is enough practical application of theory to warrant the time it would take... I mean its too late for me but maybe some young high school smith should take a physics prep class with the idea it would be a valuable addition to his apprenticeship...

I think a degree in physics would be serious overkill as a background for practical smithing in a regular shop. But doing the basic college physics curriculum e.g working through Sears & Zemansky with emphasis on the sections about mechanics would be very useful. The math that goes with it wouldn't hurt either.

Now if he wanted to work in a big industrial operation (I mean big industry not big forgings) then I expect some kind of engineering degree would be necessary.

[Frosty]

on a resent trip to Alaska I went to the museum in Juno there is a small blacksmithing display the anvil weight 50 lb and the bellows was small I guess if you have to lug your stuff around on horseback or dog sled the 1000# anvil just will not work. is bigger better or is some one overcompensating

That is really cool Francis! I've been to that very museum and know the set up well, as well as 25 year old memories that is.

You wouldn't believe how they had the tools set up when I first saw it. On the up side the curator was more than happy someone showed up who knew a top fuller from a hammer and let me arrange things and make labels for them.

For the most part that set of tools were for the mines and you needed to be able to pack em up and down mountainsides and mine shafts to do repairs. Lots of drill bit sharpening and making the odd steel thingy as needed.

Were you able to see the smithy in Skagway? I sure wish we could've met up on your visit. Another time eh?

Frosty the Lucky.

[Iron Falcon 72]

From Maddog
For different ratios of anvil mass to hammer mass, I get these numbers for the percentage of energy lost to anvil movement.
Ratio %Loss

5:1 55%
10:1 33%
15:1 23%
20:1 18%
25:1 15%

The equation I used was %Energy loss = 4r /(1+r)^2 x 100 where r is the anvil to hammer mass ratio.

These results should be treated with some skepticism. I am not an ME. The numbers do seem plausible. They say there is not much point in going beyond 20:1 which seems to be industry practice and it's hard to get more than 80% efficiency.
Sorry to be so late getting to this thread. I don't think I understand your ratio. You say it's anvil mass to hammer mass. So does that mean a 25:1 is 50 lb anvil : 2 lb hammer. Obviously I'm missing somethig.

[maddog]

.... I don't think I understand your ratio. You say it's anvil mass to hammer mass. So does that mean a 25:1 is 50 lb anvil : 2 lb hammer. Obviously I'm missing somethig.

It means any combination of weights where the anvil mass is 25x the mass of the hammer. 50:2 also 25:1, 1000:40 etc. They will all have the same %loss.

[firebug]

How much is too much is a matter of neccessity. I would believe that for most smiths a 250 to 300 pound anvil would be more than enough. If you have a 3 pound hand hammer and have a 275 pound anvil that is a ratio of more than 91 to 1. If you have a 5 pound hand hammer it is 55 to 1. And a 10 pound sledge would be more than 27 to 1. Certainly this size anvil would be more than enough for almost any hobbiest and most professionals. My main anvil is a 335 Euro which is a great anvil. I just picked up a 175 Euro today for portability. I wanted an anvil I could carry around. I have picked that 335 up by hand a time or two and it tends to get heavy after a few steps. Anyway, I have worked on a 500 anvil for a while and that is a lot of real estate to work around. Here are some of my observations and opinions which only apply to me. It becomes a point of dimishing returns after you get to around 275 for me. The cost of the anvil compared with the small gains I would get, as well as most poeple in my opinion, are not worth it. As I stated early, the larger the anvil the more real estate you must work around and move around to get to tools, positions, etc. If you are using a hand hammer the face of the hammer will be relatively small, even a sledge is relatively small when compared to the face of large anvils. For most work you do not need the anvil face to be much larger than the face of the hammer striking it. Having a large anvil face is a very big heat sink which sucks the heat out of the steel you are working with.

In the end each of us has to make up our own minds according to the kind of work we do. Is there a need for large anvils? I am sure there is. I know where a 500 pound anvil is that I could buy for about 1200.00 and it is mint. Will I buy it, probably, but it would be to look at. First it is an english pattern which I do not use. Secondly, I have no use for a 500 pound anvil. I have a 160 hammer if I need to work big stuff. It would be strickly as an investment and to say hey, look at my 500 pound anvil as I wipe the dust off.

[Dragons lair]

How much is too much is a matter of neccessity. I would believe that for most smiths a 250 to 300 pound anvil would be more than enough. If you have a 3 pound hand hammer and have a 275 pound anvil that is a ratio of more than 91 to 1. If you have a 5 pound hand hammer it is 55 to 1. And a 10 pound sledge would be more than 27 to 1. Certainly this size anvil would be more than enough for almost any hobbiest and most professionals. My main anvil is a 335 Euro which is a great anvil. I just picked up a 175 Euro today for portability. I wanted an anvil I could carry around. I have picked that 335 up by hand a time or two and it tends to get heavy after a few steps. Anyway, I have worked on a 500 anvil for a while and that is a lot of real estate to work around. Here are some of my observations and opinions which only apply to me. It becomes a point of dimishing returns after you get to around 275 for me. The cost of the anvil compared with the small gains I would get, as well as most poeple in my opinion, are not worth it. As I stated early, the larger the anvil the more real estate you must work around and move around to get to tools, positions, etc. If you are using a hand hammer the face of the hammer will be relatively small, even a sledge is relatively small when compared to the face of large anvils. For most work you do not need the anvil face to be much larger than the face of the hammer striking it. Having a large anvil face is a very big heat sink which sucks the heat out of the steel you are working with.

In the end each of us has to make up our own minds according to the kind of work we do. Is there a need for large anvils? I am sure there is. I know where a 500 pound anvil is that I could buy for about 1200.00 and it is mint. Will I buy it, probably, but it would be to look at. First it is an english pattern which I do not use. Secondly, I have no use for a 500 pound anvil. I have a 160 hammer if I need to work big stuff. It would be strickly as an investment and to say hey, look at my 500 pound anvil as I wipe the dust off.

Naw it's a matter of want. Most of us want a bigger we don't NEED a bigger. I will admit it. I have a 37,60,88,142 and a 194 lb anvil all in great shape.Do I need another and bigger? Do I want a bigger? Answer is YES. Do I need a bigger? Answer NO. There is not a fine line between what we need and we want. Wish there were. Wouldn't have 2 trackhoes a skid loader A 12hp mower and a 20hp mower And a shop full of tools not used. Beware the bigger better
newer demon. Learn to use what ya got and be happy with it. 600hp under the hood is cool. 110 that ya can drive every day is better. Been there done that. Be happy with ya got. I ain't rich but I am happy or at least content.
Ken.

[ThomasPowers]

My 515# anvil has some features that my others don't. It's a Fisher and so QUIET! Has 2 large hardy holes (1.5") and the horn is a lovely curve for drawing out with a hand sledge on. It gets the most work done on it in my shop. However the one that gets the next most amount of work is about 100# just because it is small and portable and has a heel that's not 4" thick and a horn that's not pudgy!

My bridge anvil will go into the armouring shop mainly to be used for flattening and holding stakes. The 410# Trenton will be sited next to the gas forges and the Fisher will go out by the large coal forge and powerhammer(s).

The goal is to have each work cell completely tricked out with forge, anvil, postvise and since the Champion powerhammer is a side feed model it can go in between two stations. Hammers and tongs will be racked in a central location save for specialty tools like armouring hammers or those for non-ferrous work.

A man can DREAM can't he! (my nightmare is that I get completely set up and then have to move---again!)

If one is willing to wait and *hunt* a large anvil does not need to be a budget breaker. OTOH after a number of years working on a moderate sized anvil you might find that "anvilling up" doesn't get you too much as you are *used* to the smaller one and naturally turn to it instead of the new biggie.

Blacksmiths suffer terribly from Anvil Envy and there doesn't seem to be any cure...

[divermike]

When I was a wee lad apprentice in the carpenters union, all my peers talked about the tools they had bought and how great this and that was, I looked at the old timers and got what they worked with. Boots, hammers etc. This concept served me well. Now as to blacksmithing, I have taken courses with some very accomplished people, one such, I would hazard to guess, Mark Aspery, would laugh at this thread, and shake his head. When he taught at Touchstone the last couple of years, he eschewed the large demo anvil for a regular sized anvil, and did his work there. He explained his reasons, and I agree, it is simply easier to work over and around a 150 lb-er than to manage a large anvil for most projects. After seeing his abilities, and how he used the anvil, I set aside my 300 lb fisher, and went to a smaller Budden, this is all predicated on what you are doing of course, but for my shop and projects, the smaller easier to manage anvil is king. But then I don't feel a need to go out and get a corvette either... (sic)

[bajajoaquin]

Not that I'm trying to criticize for being off topic (I think one of the criteria for a good discussion is going off topic from time to time), but keep in mind that I was thinking of the "monster" definition somewhere around the $7K-$8K, 1,000lb-1200lb examples that Refflinghaus produces and sells.

I don't think anyone here would say that a 500-lb shop anvil is a monster. Just an object of envy.

[firebug]

When I was a wee lad apprentice in the carpenters union, all my peers talked about the tools they had bought and how great this and that was, I looked at the old timers and got what they worked with. Boots, hammers etc. This concept served me well. Now as to blacksmithing, I have taken courses with some very accomplished people, one such, I would hazard to guess, Mark Aspery, would laugh at this thread, and shake his head. When he taught at Touchstone the last couple of years, he eschewed the large demo anvil for a regular sized anvil, and did his work there. He explained his reasons, and I agree, it is simply easier to work over and around a 150 lb-er than to manage a large anvil for most projects. After seeing his abilities, and how he used the anvil, I set aside my 300 lb fisher, and went to a smaller Budden, this is all predicated on what you are doing of course, but for my shop and projects, the smaller easier to manage anvil is king. But then I don't feel a need to go out and get a corvette either... (sic)

Divermike'

I agree. You should size your anvil to the work being done. For the most part we will be using 2 - 5 pound hand hammers. If that is what you are using there is normally not going to be a need for a large 500 pound anvil, certainly not a 1000 pound anvil. Hofi has designed a couple anvils, both of which weigh about 275 pounds. I have heard him say that this size anvil is more than enough for most smiths. I believe that too. I have worked on 500 pound anvils and they are rather bulky to work on when compared to a 200 to 300 pound anvil. As I said in an earlier post I just picked up a 175 pound Euro anvil. I am sure once I get it set up I will use it some even though I have a 335 pound Euro.

[ThomasPowers]

I really like using an anvil you can serve lunch on. Folks keep talking about faces being too wide but at least for what I do I have not had an issue with that.