Fireplace mantel installation

[FieryFurnace]

First off; thank you for all the great responses in regards to the fireplace mantel attachment. I had decided to go with toggel bolts and made a trip to the hardware store with the intention of buying them. However, the large hole required to get even a 3/16 toggel in, worried me. Next to the toggels, were the tapcons. I've had bad luck with tapcons but I finally decided to get some and do a test run in some scrap cement block. I knew I would be going through 1/4" of steel, so I got 2 1/4x1/4 tapcon screws and two 3/16 bits.
I then did a test run in the block, and after jerkng and beating on it with a 4 foot crowbar, decided that I'd go with the tapcons!
Since I started the attachment thread, I've been working on making the mantel brackets.
Installation was yesterday, and passed off well.
I had to bring one part home and make an adjustment, which I will explain below. I took the piece back today along with a couple other items the guy told me he wanted me to make for him in addition.
The alteration fixed the problem, and so here are the pictures!
The brackets come out from the wall 12 inches plus the hooks. They extend down 16 inches and the entire length across is 53 inches.

[FieryFurnace]

Now notice the round cross bar that holds the S-hooks. Notice the extra wide fullers that keep the bar from shifting left to right. Well, those were not originaly that wide. You see, the entire bracket system was built on a flat surface. The round cross bar had 5/8" fullers that were spaced to fit the bracket hooks exactly. Well, when I mounted the bracket system I was not mounting to a flat surface, so tightening the screws down pulled the two brackets in slightly closer together. It is not noticeable, but on the fullers I was a total of about an inch off. So that is why I have wide fullers.

Materials used:
1/4x2 for the main part of the brackets
1/4x1 for the scrolls (do those qualify as scrolls or just long curves?) and the two bars connecting the two brackets
5/8 or 3/4 round bar for the cross bar. (I never really did measure! )
Finish is hammer textured, hand sanded, and gloss coated. All the points of attachment are hidden.

I made a jig for the scrolls or long curves, (whatever they are) I also made a tool for making the flat back S-hooks that are on the bottom piece that connects the two brackets, and I made a 1 inch flat fuller for refullering that round bar.

For the sole purpose of determining if I am undercharging for my ironwork, or overcharging or whatever, I would really appreciate if the full time smiths on here would tell me what they would charge for such a piece.
This piece included 12 S-hooks with the brackets and cross bar. It was delivered and installed. (delivery trip was 20 minutes one way.)
So if you don't mind, what price tag would you put on it?

Thoughts???

[lordcaradoc]

Wow Dave, that's beautiful work. I only hope my work gets to that level once I get my forge up and running.

Thanks for posting.

I don't have any idea on pricing really, but just for a baseline, how many hours work do you have in this project and what was the materials cost? That would be a good place to start.

Best regards,
Tim

[Francis Trez Cole]

nice work why so many hooks? did you get the matching fire tools part of the job?

[thecelticforge]

Dayum Dude! Getting an excellent eye!

[Sask Mark]

The biggest flaw I know of Tapcons is the crappy masonry bits that come in the packs. If you hit a piece of aggregate in concrete, you are usually sunk.

A high quality bit and a hammer drill FAR outperform the cheap Tapcon bits. Once the screws have the right sized holes, they work very well.

[pkrankow]

Excellent looking!

Phil

[chyancarrek]

Nice Dave!

Congrats on a job well done!

[rawtiron]

Sweet work Dave. Very nice.
Jason

[petere76]

Dave,

Nice job and good follow through on getting it out to the client. In this business as many others, its produce or perish. You have done well brother.

Peter

[Bad Creek Blacksmith]

Dave it is really nice, one thing though what are you going to do to cover the tap cons. You have this beautiful mantel that you handcrafted then you have these ugly blue screws holding it in place. Just a thought.

[Frosty]

Doggone Dave that is a top notch piece of work! I'm going to start asking YOU questions. A little touchup paint will take care of the Tapcons if it's an issue.

All round well done and then some.

Frosty the Lucky.

[FieryFurnace]

Wow! Thanks y'all!

Actually I was wanting to also get an idea from some professional smiths about how much time they think it would take them to make it! That is before I posted my time!

I'm thinking a full-timer could have turned these out in about a quarter of the time I did, and charged about the same or a little more.

Let's see, I've got about 14 hours total. Nearly everything is hand hammered except the fullers and about 1/4 of the tapers for the hooks on the brackets. I did those parts with the treadle. Still took me WAAAAYYYYYY too long! I think it should have been maybe half of that! Thoughts???

I got $185 including delivery and installation for everything.
Lets see; it was $30 per bracket, $15 for the cross bar, $60 for the 12 hooks (I did that many cause he said he wanted that many! Why? I have no idea!,) and $50 for delivery/installation.
Materials cost $20.00 which I kindly passed on to the client!

No I couldn't talk him into the matching fireplace tools. He's already got one of those really nice unique China made deals!

About the ugly blue tapcons. Actually when you look at the mantle from a standing position the tapcons are tucked under that big wooden mantel shelf so you can't see them. That is one reason why I made the entire bracket system as one unit. I could screw right under that mantel where it is pretty much hidden from any normal view. I would like to expriment with little rosets or something and some sort of glue that will hold them on top of the screw for something just short of forever.

And before I get grilled for pricing/time, I kind of view these things like this.
Number one, I'm working with a local guy I know! Makes the learning curve a bit more easy than working with a client that is 2 hours away and undecided about design.
Number two, I'm in the learning curve and so I'm gaining alot in experience if not in the green paper.
Number three, I know next time to work faster and charge more!

I also started a notebook today were I am going to start taking notes on what to do, stuff to bring, shortcuts on forging/fab, etc.

Once again thanks all!

[pkrankow]

Pre-paint your tapcons next time.

Phil

[Fosterob]

Congrats, That came out nice. I dont think your time is out of line, if I was to bid that I would guess that the hooks would be 1 hr the texture would be 1 hr ends 1 hr fab time 1 hr cross bars 1 hr. that is 5 hrs to have a completed shelf support. Now you have to sand and finish 2 hr drive to job and install 3 hr. That is a total of 10 hrs not including design time with the client 2 hr. 12 hrs total but usually that stretches a bit depending on what types of tooling needs to be made.
Keep accurate records of how much time each phase takes and what that phase is because in a few years when you go to refer to it everything you take for granted now because it is fresh in your mind will be long gone. Prices vary so much for so many reasons it is hard to talk about. Sounds fair for your situation there though.
Good work
Rob

[bigfootnampa]

To be truthful Dave I doubt you'll get a whole lot faster at such things (unless you do many that are much alike). You ARE likely to get better though and that will make your work worth more. You were maybe just a little on the cheap side for this one anyway so I would think you'd be in line to charge a bit more for your next such project. I don't think you were too far off though... the economy is tight right now, people are careful! You are buying your material at nice prices and you have time involved in that too so mark them up a little.

[ianinsa]

Very nice work Dave, don't get too beat up on what you charge just make sure that you do it for a PROFIT,
The biggest mistake is to make a loss especially while times are bad, often these 'cheap' jobs get good referals because the client feels that he got a good 'deal'. Keep up the good work!
Ian

[FieryFurnace]

Congrats, That came out nice. I dont think your time is out of line, if I was to bid that I would guess that the hooks would be 1 hr the texture would be 1 hr ends 1 hr fab time 1 hr cross bars 1 hr. that is 5 hrs to have a completed shelf support. Now you have to sand and finish 2 hr drive to job and install 3 hr. That is a total of 10 hrs not including design time with the client 2 hr. 12 hrs total but usually that stretches a bit depending on what types of tooling needs to be made.
Keep accurate records of how much time each phase takes and what that phase is because in a few years when you go to refer to it everything you take for granted now because it is fresh in your mind will be long gone. Prices vary so much for so many reasons it is hard to talk about. Sounds fair for your situation there though.
Good work
Rob

Thanks for the tips on what info to record in my notebook. I'll start a time chart section so I can record what processes take what amount of time.


Phil: I'll go with the paint next time! B)

[Francis Trez Cole]

myself I would have charged a little more I would have taken $30+60+15+20=125/.33=$378.00 1/3 material 1/3 labor and 1/3 profit. The profit I reinvest into the shop and supplies. There are other irems like fuel that need to be included. My mentor takes the material the clint purchases the whole amount then he makes a 1' section of fence and figures man hours to make the 1' section then bills the client the labor per ft. the important thing is do you feel good with the amount of money you made? And same with your coustomer. the China stuff will not hold up he will be back

[FieryFurnace]

Actually I repaired one of the china made pieces....NOW it WILL hold up! LOL

[Bad Creek Blacksmith]

Dave,

I hope you didn't feel insulted about the tap cons, because the mantel is truly a amazing piece of work. I know you can't see them from a standing position but when your sitting they will stick out. I was thinking a Rosette would look good and add a little extra. Its all in the learning process. Seeing the tap cons just reminded me of us working on a $750,000 house and someone used tap cons to put the shutters up, the clients weren't to happy. Nuff said

[Don A]

Great work Dave.

Somebody got a great deal on a fine piece of craftsmanship.

Only one thing, and I am notorious for over-building stuff, but I think I would have either turned the curve of the braces in or left them straight. Turned out, they kinda look like springs instead of braces. I know that piece will never see nearly that much weight, but it's just one of those hang-ups I'm prone to.

I think you did really good time wise, and I understand about keep the cost down through the learning curve, but I believe you're ready to start curving up a bit price wise.

I hope you have a touchmark that you're stanmping your work with. I'd be proud to have my name on that one.

Good job,

Don

[Dragons lair]

Now notice the round cross bar that holds the S-hooks. Notice the extra wide fullers that keep the bar from shifting left to right. Well, those were not originaly that wide. You see, the entire bracket system was built on a flat surface. The round cross bar had 5/8" fullers that were spaced to fit the bracket hooks exactly. Well, when I mounted the bracket system I was not mounting to a flat surface, so tightening the screws down pulled the two brackets in slightly closer together. It is not noticeable, but on the fullers I was a total of about an inch off. So that is why I have wide fullers.

Materials used:
1/4x2 for the main part of the brackets
1/4x1 for the scrolls (do those qualify as scrolls or just long curves?) and the two bars connecting the two brackets
5/8 or 3/4 round bar for the cross bar. (I never really did measure! )
Finish is hammer textured, hand sanded, and gloss coated. All the points of attachment are hidden.

I made a jig for the scrolls or long curves, (whatever they are) I also made a tool for making the flat back S-hooks that are on the bottom piece that connects the two brackets, and I made a 1 inch flat fuller for refullering that round bar.

For the sole purpose of determining if I am undercharging for my ironwork, or overcharging or whatever, I would really appreciate if the full time smiths on here would tell me what they would charge for such a piece.
This piece included 12 S-hooks with the brackets and cross bar. It was delivered and installed. (delivery trip was 20 minutes one way.)
So if you don't mind, what price tag would you put on it?

Thoughts???

Dave, Great job just waaay to cheap. In order to last ya gotta have a hourly min.
Overhead(coal/gas electric/meterals/rent)( I know your on the farm)Ya should be making atleast $50 per hr. Here in WNC I see fireplace sets in gallerys at $650
If the workmanship is better it ain't by much. Your at less than $12 per hr.
Remember its easier to go down in price than up.
Ken.

[Rich Hale]

Guestimate pricing will almost always cause you grief over time. It is a real chore to determine wot it actually costs you to work in a trade like this. However if you are willing to put in some time you can make a workable way for costs:
Are you paying for the place you woor? If not you may want to figure wot it will cost when that changes as when you get a reputation for a certain pricing it is difficult to raise that when you need to.
Of all the equiment you use including hammers, handles. new tools, coal or gas, You would be wise to compute the actual costs, That includes maintenance and future replacement of items like welders in addition to the normal cost of use like welding rod or wire. grinding wheels etc.
And vehicle cost; wot does it cost you per mile to drive? And reemember that includes going to get supplies, give bids on work you do not get and the more obvious ones like tires, battery life, insurance, and general maintenance. And lets not forget that you need medical insurance, and you must set aside money each day for furthering your education and abilities.
Am I being nit picky about this? of course I am, these bills must be paid. Its your work, your rules and your profit or loss. Create a log, worksheet or anything that will allow you to keep track of wot it actually cost you to enter your shop and work. When shoeing horses I found I had to make a buck a minute while working or I got into the red side of the ledger real fast. And never forget to speak with your clients about the change of prices in the future based on many of the things covered above. You simply cannot bid a job now and have them expect to pay that price later. Cost of fuel for one item is a really good reason for this.
When you pay more at the pump so do the suppliers you buy materials from. They do not eat that loss and neither should you. So when you bid make a written note that the bid is good for so many days, months or however you wish it to be and then may be adjusted based on increases in your overhead. And I know you are starting out but I have also watched the improvement in your work and you are ahead of the game along way. You may not get as much work if you increase prices. but think about whether you can afford to give your time and money to someone you do not even know.
You can do a piece like in this thread and make a truck payment or get a tire or two. Is that enough to consider that money a profit? Only you know or can find out.
It is a pleasure to see your work on here,,keep it up and continue to share with us.

[Spears]

Considering the cost of everything nowadays plus the equipment and resources it takes to put together a nice project like that, it can definitely be argued that the price was on the light side. However, keeping the cost well affordable should gather interests of future customers. I've seen the inside of homes owned by some very wealthy people where the level of decor wouldn't even come close. Someday when there is an entire inventory of your work on display somewhere, I will take a trip just to see it. Thank you for posting pictures. Spears.