pkrankow Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 I know the dealer charges me $90/hour for service. I know the mechanic I used to go to charged $75/hr. The mechanic before that (Dad) had a completely different payment scheme more akin to bartering for the labor, and paying for the materials and shop fees. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted November 3, 2010 Author Share Posted November 3, 2010 "Bad Creek Blacksmith" Offended??? C'mon! If I was that thin skinned I would be able to be a blacksmith for all the cuts I'd get. LOL No gents, I'm not posting pictures of my works for "hugs and kisses." (Although that part is really nice! ) I intend to be a full time smith and in order to do that successfully, I need straight forward advice that says "this would be an improvement." I agree, I should have done something with those tapcons and that note is taken down in my book. "Dragons lair" Yea I think it was like $8.00 an hour or something. I knew it was poor. However, $50.00 an hour would have been a $700 fireplace mantel. Seems a bit steep, and that is why I was questioning the amount of time I spent working on this thing. Thoughts on that??? "Rich Hale" Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you! I think I'm going to memorize that list. I'm 18! I don't think about a lot of that so I need someone that will tell me! I'll make a note of your advice in the "pricing" section of my note book. Picky? Yes! THANKS! "Spears" Ahhh well I've already submitted my work to a gallery and was turned down! LOL No luck there so far! I really need to research some more galleries. "Phil" Thank you for those figures! Frankly I have been trying to quote on about $20 an hour. (Plus materials fees.) I know it is low! I have asked some blacksmiths I met if they minded telling me what was their hourly pricing. Some of them have been open with me and told me! It seems the average is around $50 an hour. I do need to increase my pricing, that is clear, but I don't want to charge professional level prices and not provide professional level work. Just my .02! Once again thank you all for your complement and suggestions. I know it isn't standard issue in today's world, but I would honestly rather someone tell me straight what needs to be improved. I really appreciate the sometimes critical observations in my work and other aspects of doing this full time. If the choice is get a lot of complements and fail as a full timer, or get straight blunt advice and succede, then keep the complements! I'll take the blunt advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Dave; One way that I have used to cover fastener heads (like your tapcons) is to dab a bit of caulking of appropriate color on them and then shape it up a bit with a wet finger. This works great for four or a dozen... kinda tedious for 50 or 100. It's quick and simple though and you can make them look just about like rivet heads with a little practice. Silicon works well and also some of the new glue/caulk hybrids (I think they are mostly polyurethane). Some plumbers epoxy putty works good too and you can paint or magic marker it to tint. Just roll a little ball and head it with your finger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 What's not professional about your work? It is top notch and you are making (trying to make?) a living on it.... Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Dave: $20/hr doesn't even cover labor let alone shop overhead. I was charging $75/hr more than 20 years ago and got no complaints worth worrying about. some folk are going to gripe about the price no matter what, it's often a matter of principle to dicker. Here a mantle that nice would've been a bargain at $700 plus installation. It might've been hard to move at $185 though. One thing we're selling with high skill hand crafted work is bragging rights. Customers will brag about how much a custom hand made piece of art cost them and you're never going to hear someone overly proud of the bargain piece. Times are tight sure and an ego boost is more savory for that. The doffers I was selling before the injury were taking about 20 mins to make, not counting hand rubbing them with raw wool for the lanolin finish and I was getting swamped with orders at $50 each. I can't tell you how it made me feel the first time I overheard three gals comparing doffers and bragging. On the other hand being honest is as important as it gets so not charging above your level is a must. For instance, I was charging the same $50 for doffers when it was taking me almost an hour apiece. Keep the notebook, maybe several. Just don't be bashful, you're doing pretty darned high quality work and charging well below market. You're worth it, you're at the high end of the scale already and you're just getting rolling good. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Dave, Frosty said it better than I did. I was off a little in that my shop(welding or smithing) the labor charge has been $50 hr. I allow the client to provide material if they chose(only clean and new) bring crap and they pay for clean up. I have a client who buys trashed farm equip cheap.Had one large piece required $200 in materials and 18 hrs travel and labor. Total $1100 I billed him $800(good friend and client) He asked me to cut the bill in half. (Man makes more in a mounth than I make in a yr) Lets see $200 for 18 hrs work. He gets $400 an hr for consulting. Go figure. One of my local guild members charges $80-100 per hr for yard art. Put a nose 4legs 2ears and a tail on a grill tank add 2 wings ya get a flying pig for $125. Don't want to see ya at 65 yrs old looking at working till ya drop. Ken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Joyce Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Hello Fellow Balcksmith, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Joyce Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Hello Fellow Balcksmith, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Joyce Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Hello Fellow Balcksmith, I would forge it all complete within one working day and spend 1-2 hrs on finish. Installation is strictly T & M. I would have used red head lead anchors if the masonary permitted. Blacksmiths charge what other trades charge per hour, such as plumber, electrician or cabinet maker. I would not make a jig for anything that required less than SEVERAL of the same item. Blacksmiths working for a living have to make repeat items fast and efficiently and we don't get paid for jig time. I do really like the finished product and trust the mantle height above firebox opening meets county fire code...otherwise you may be personally liable for the life of the house for the mantle catching fire. There ain't any short cuts in the liability issue in construction when insurance companies get involved. JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Joyce Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Fellow Blacksmith, i forgot to say I like the 45 degree touch on the lower half of the J-hooks. that's a class detail...here is something I got a long time ago from Daryl Nelson, Eaton, Washington: Chamfer, chamfer chamfer!!!! all edges. Cold bend shops don't chamfer, blacksmiths do. JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Hi Dave, To quote you "Yea I think it was like $8.00 an hour or something. I knew it was poor. However, $50.00 an hour would have been a $700 fireplace mantel. Seems a bit steep, and that is why I was questioning the amount of time I spent working on this thing. Thoughts on that???" Never, Never try and judge what is steep or not, you are in business to at least survive, and your work standard is as good as some and better than most. One of the problems with low pricing when you start out is that when you do realise and increase your prices, previous clients or potential clients will notice the big difference. You also don't yet have the self confidence to ask for payment or what your own worth is. You can also not assume what people can or cannot afford to pay for an item, and each item has a part of you and your life invested that cannot be reclaimed, what do you value that at? Look at what other professionals are charging, and that will give you an idea of what you should be looking at to survive. If at the end of a project you do not get the financial reward you need, then you may as well stop now and turn to something that will provide that income Blacksmithing is a brilliant hobby, but a hard way to make a living Another problem with this is hobby smiths prices being compared to professionals, unfortunately there is not much most of us can do about that. A couple of examples here, one hobby smith was making and selling Rams heads letter openers for £2 each, just to cover his beer money, each one took nearly an hour each to make, when they were put out for sale, because it was an insult to the professional who were also selling items at the venue, the 2 was marked up to 20, and all item were sold. Another example, a simple forged doorknocker, sold for in excess of £200 which seemed way overpriced from most comments heard from practicing smiths who would have been more than satisfied with less than half of the selling price and still have turned a good profit. At the end of the day you are selling a unique future family heirloom and quality product,be proud of what you make, and don't sell yourself short. All the very best for the future, you are coming along fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul42` Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Very, very nice! I've been looking for an idea for a shelf in my kitchen... think I just found one! Awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Nice Job! I like it. However I also think you left some money on the table. Don't worry though, as you do more work you will become more confident in asking for the higher price for your work and then renegotiateing the price if the client isn't happy with the price you asked for. Your work is good and you should get that $50.00 hr. or more. I have done many a job at a lower price because the job it self excited me and wanted a chance to do the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 David,first let me say it is a pleasure to see your work and read your posts.You serve as an inspiration for us all as to motivation and ability to quickly build skills as well as your shining CAN DO attitude and open mind. Here are some things I hope will be of as much help to you as they were to me coming up. Find yourself a mentor,by that I mean someone who is working at this trade,is successful,is putting out work you admire and above all is honest in his dealings with everybody.Be as open and honest with this person as you are here,ask them to critique your work and for help on pricing.You have already said you are talking to some other local smiths who may fit the bill,time to bring that relationship to the next level. If the person you are attempting to work with is not as open and honest with you as you are with them then they are too short sighted to be a mentor.Helping you,especially with pricing,keeps you from undercutting their rate and an honest businessman will be glad to help you for this reason alone. Beware of someone who wants to subcontract to you or hire you in order to "mentor" you.Most times this means they just want to make money off your sweat.Every person I have mentored worked along side me and I provided full disclosure of what I was making and what his or her labor brought in as well as what percentage of that(if any) was to go into my pocket.My time spent training/helping that person was always offset by having a set of extra hands I could rely on when it came to bigger jobs or shorter lead times.The ones that stayed in the end helped me as much as I helped them.I am still friends with most of them. When I started making art pieces in both wood and metal I was still pricing the pieces like any other work that came in the door.A good friend (who has become one of my mentors) and internationally known wood artist explained to me the idea of "perceived value". He had watched my work and finally stepped forward and asked me why I was selling it so cheaply.He explained to me that the price of the work sets the value in he owners mind.If you sell the work cheaply then no matter what the quality or skill level the work is still cheap work in that persons mind and they present it to others that way.It is not so much fine work as a "good deal". Look around at other people`s work in galleries,juried shows and wherever you can and pay particular attention to the prices.If your work is better then the price should reflect that.If it`s not then you need to practice more till you can stand with your peers and command the same prices. David,your work is better than average by far and I can see you having no problem selling it up here in a craftsman rich environment.You have every right to be proud of both your work and yourself.Put your age and perceived skill level aside and charge what you are truly worth. It appears you have a natural gift for this trade/craft and you very much deserve to be properly compensated for it. Now invest some time in finding that mentor.If they can`t be found locally then look to the nearest guild, club or Abana for one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Fellow Blacksmith, i forgot to say I like the 45 degree touch on the lower half of the J-hooks. that's a class detail...here is something I got a long time ago from Daryl Nelson, Eaton, Washington: Chamfer, chamfer chamfer!!!! all edges. Cold bend shops don't chamfer, blacksmiths do. JJ Thank you for pointing that out. I missed it the first (few) times. That is an excellent detail! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted November 5, 2010 Author Share Posted November 5, 2010 David,first let me say it is a pleasure to see your work and read your posts.You serve as an inspiration for us all as to motivation and ability to quickly build skills as well as your shining CAN DO attitude and open mind. Here are some things I hope will be of as much help to you as they were to me coming up. Find yourself a mentor,by that I mean someone who is working at this trade,is successful,is putting out work you admire and above all is honest in his dealings with everybody.Be as open and honest with this person as you are here,ask them to critique your work and for help on pricing.You have already said you are talking to some other local smiths who may fit the bill,time to bring that relationship to the next level. If the person you are attempting to work with is not as open and honest with you as you are with them then they are too short sighted to be a mentor.Helping you,especially with pricing,keeps you from undercutting their rate and an honest businessman will be glad to help you for this reason alone. Beware of someone who wants to subcontract to you or hire you in order to "mentor" you.Most times this means they just want to make money off your sweat.Every person I have mentored worked along side me and I provided full disclosure of what I was making and what his or her labor brought in as well as what percentage of that(if any) was to go into my pocket.My time spent training/helping that person was always offset by having a set of extra hands I could rely on when it came to bigger jobs or shorter lead times.The ones that stayed in the end helped me as much as I helped them.I am still friends with most of them. When I started making art pieces in both wood and metal I was still pricing the pieces like any other work that came in the door.A good friend (who has become one of my mentors) and internationally known wood artist explained to me the idea of "perceived value". He had watched my work and finally stepped forward and asked me why I was selling it so cheaply.He explained to me that the price of the work sets the value in he owners mind.If you sell the work cheaply then no matter what the quality or skill level the work is still cheap work in that persons mind and they present it to others that way.It is not so much fine work as a "good deal". Look around at other people`s work in galleries,juried shows and wherever you can and pay particular attention to the prices.If your work is better then the price should reflect that.If it`s not then you need to practice more till you can stand with your peers and command the same prices. David,your work is better than average by far and I can see you having no problem selling it up here in a craftsman rich environment.You have every right to be proud of both your work and yourself.Put your age and perceived skill level aside and charge what you are truly worth. It appears you have a natural gift for this trade/craft and you very much deserve to be properly compensated for it. Now invest some time in finding that mentor.If they can`t be found locally then look to the nearest guild, club or Abana for one. Thanks Mr. Bob! I am actually talking to a guy now about working with him for a while. We are talking about maybe working for a week together to see if we like the situation/get along, and then maybe work out something longer. The guy seems nice and helpful! Thank you for your cautions about working under a mentor. I will definitely keep that in mind, and be careful. I appreciate the other advice as well about pricing. I certainly need it. Strangly enough, what to me is a whole flood of jobs have come in. The client that I made the mantel bracket for came and paid me for some additional items the other day. Before he left he asked, "do you have anything else for me to spend my money on?" He may bring his wife over tomorrow to look at general household hardware and I'm going to try to talk them into a pot rack. He liked the idea of one, just gotta hook the pocket book! I just finished some traditional latches the other day, and the guy that ordered them said if he liked them that he had some other traditional repro's he wants me to do. I am currently working with a lady in Louisville that is interested in a pot rack and general hardware for her log cabin, and I just got an email last night for someone who saw my pot rack at a show and wants pricing! This is CRAZY! It's like I got the shop done and people start calling! I hope it keeps up! I hope I get the jobs! Thanks for the comments on the 45's on the lower hooks. I bend all of my S-hooks on the diamond so I wanted the lower hooks to match. BUT I had to have a flat side to hook on the bar! Result? The 45! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksnagel Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Dave, Do you really wonder why you are being flooded with work? Take a step back, look at your work, blink, look again and you should have your answer. Read what Paul said at the bottom of my post. Believe it. Blessings come in all forms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Thanks Mr. Bob! I am actually talking to a guy now about working with him for a while. We are talking about maybe working for a week together to see if we like the situation/get along, and then maybe work out something longer. The guy seems nice and helpful! Thank you for your cautions about working under a mentor. I will definitely keep that in mind, and be careful. I appreciate the other advice as well about pricing. I certainly need it. Strangly enough, what to me is a whole flood of jobs have come in. The client that I made the mantel bracket for came and paid me for some additional items the other day. Before he left he asked, "do you have anything else for me to spend my money on?" He may bring his wife over tomorrow to look at general household hardware and I'm going to try to talk them into a pot rack. He liked the idea of one, just gotta hook the pocket book! I just finished some traditional latches the other day, and the guy that ordered them said if he liked them that he had some other traditional repro's he wants me to do. I am currently working with a lady in Louisville that is interested in a pot rack and general hardware for her log cabin, and I just got an email last night for someone who saw my pot rack at a show and wants pricing! This is CRAZY! It's like I got the shop done and people start calling! I hope it keeps up! I hope I get the jobs! Thanks for the comments on the 45's on the lower hooks. I bend all of my S-hooks on the diamond so I wanted the lower hooks to match. BUT I had to have a flat side to hook on the bar! Result? The 45! Good things happen to good people. Congradulations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Pricing also controls volume. Higher pricing should (but not always) reduce your volume. Appropriate pricing will have you working hard, have time off, and meet all your business needs. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Well what can we say exept congratulations on a job well done! As I said before sometimes 'cheap' jobs bring good referals. When Frosty was working for $75.00/hour 20 years ago some of that probably was'nt even all for blacksmithing... some of it was probably for thinking . I often contemplate on prices like would ....(a wealthy mate/client/aquaintance) pay $xxx for that? If the answer is yes then your price is within what the market can stand and go with that price. If your answer is he would probably pay more then your estimate is too low. David, this is a dying art, but an art none the less. If you are providing the 'real' thing you need to be rewarded apropriately. $50.00/hour aint bad but it ain't gona get you no BMW X5 and you need an X5.(read Audi Q7/S class Merc whatever)and start pricing yourself acordingly. If and when people balk,then and only then lower the price somewhat. People believe that you get what you pay for! Ask yourself if you wanted an artist to do a mural for you and you asked 2 guys for a quote - one chap says "it will take me 2 days and cost you $600" the other says "it will take me 2 days and cost you $8000" Subconsiosly you will ask yourself 'is the second guy using better paint? is he a better artist? Did the first guy lose the plot? Will he duff it? if he is so cheap could he be any good? (none of wich may be the case) You might then try to negotiate the second guy down to say $7000 or $6000, but you will have dismissed the first guy because he was too cheap. Alternatively you might just exploit the guy, after all he set his price! Try not be the first guy. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 Well what can we say exept congratulations on a job well done! As I said before sometimes 'cheap' jobs bring good referals. When Frosty was working for $75.00/hour 20 years ago some of that probably was'nt even all for blacksmithing... some of it was probably for thinking . I often contemplate on prices like would ....(a wealthy mate/client/aquaintance) pay $xxx for that? If the answer is yes then your price is within what the market can stand and go with that price. If your answer is he would probably pay more then your estimate is too low. David, this is a dying art, but an art none the less. If you are providing the 'real' thing you need to be rewarded apropriately. $50.00/hour aint bad but it ain't gona get you no BMW X5 and you need an X5.(read Audi Q7/S class Merc whatever)and start pricing yourself acordingly. If and when people balk,then and only then lower the price somewhat. People believe that you get what you pay for! Ask yourself if you wanted an artist to do a mural for you and you asked 2 guys for a quote - one chap says "it will take me 2 days and cost you $600" the other says "it will take me 2 days and cost you $8000" Subconsiosly you will ask yourself 'is the second guy using better paint? is he a better artist? Did the first guy lose the plot? Will he duff it? if he is so cheap could he be any good? (none of wich may be the case) You might then try to negotiate the second guy down to say $7000 or $6000, but you will have dismissed the first guy because he was too cheap. Alternatively you might just exploit the guy, after all he set his price! Try not be the first guy. Ian Very well put Ian! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted November 12, 2010 Share Posted November 12, 2010 Great work dave I saw it on your Blog and was impressed, with the forge, the shop, the mantel its obvious you have been working really hard and making alot of headway, your doing great I hope it all pays off for you. honestly I would start with a higher price and let them negotiate with you or remove details in order to get the work. at this point you want to build a portfolio, it will help you get work later on the real trick is getting it down to a process if you made numerous of the samething you could make more money per piece because you can work constantly on things and not get held up. I really think the key to blacksmithing is knowing because once you have the metal hot you can get alot of work done, but lighting the forge and cutting steel and cleaning does the exact opposite. but if you waste your heat and have to go for another one and do it a couple times all of a sudden you have spent 6 times as much time to produce the same thing Try to notice what sucks up time, and try to either get really good at it or avoid it lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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