your wisdom please :)

[beth]

what do you think about hammering the edges of some square bar on my power hammer... just lightly... customer wants it done cold presumably so its cheaper for him, will it damage the hammer much? thanks in advance guys and gals :)

[Fe-Wood]

I'm no hammer guru but as far as I know, power hammers don't care what they hit. The temper of your dies is what will be the issue. If they are too soft they will dent over time. You could always make a spring flatter and use that in your hammer.

[nonjic]

Its bad news for your joints!

folks do cold texture bar, but I would not recommend it from an engineering stand point. Up to you really, you takes your money and takes your chance!

[dablacksmith]

what type of power hammer? if its a old mechanical i would not... on a air hammer might not hurt it too much but still dont like it . in my opinion it dosnt take that long to heat and its much easyier on everything (hammer, your arms, the steel). good luck!

[Mills]

I have and do recommend clapper dies for the project. Wear out a slap together die rather than an integral part of the machine. If you don't hold your mouth right it can hurt. I don't believe I'd do a long run cold. But that goes to my business model. I work hot predominately and find that type of work.

[myloh67]

What size of bar Beth?

[John B]

what do you think about hammering the edges of some square bar on my power hammer... just lightly... customer wants it done cold presumably so its cheaper for him, will it damage the hammer much? thanks in advance guys and gals

Odds on are you can buy textured bar Beth.

[Dave Hammer]

I know folks who do, but I wouldn't do it with any hammer. I believe it's hard on the hammer and hard on you. If they want cheap, send em to Walmart.

[thecelticforge]

Just find some teenage boy and a teenage girl. Give him a sledge and let him show off. My dad used to get a girl in a bathing suit to drive the tractor during hay season. We had guys show up from everywhere to help with the hay and they worked very hard. All we had to do was feed them dinner.

[Jamesrjohnson]

Beth, If I remember correctly you bought a Anyang 25kg (55lb) from John N. Is that correct?

I have done some cold work on my Anyang 15kg (33lb) and the dies held up just fine. You should be okay as long as your hammering on mild steel and you keep your hammer blow on the light side. -hitting about as hard as average smith with a 2-3lb hand hammer.

If you have a large job (like 500ft of handrail) I would make a spring tool so that the wear and tear is on the spring tool-not the dies.

I use to make forged parts for a shop, and somtimes their budget was very limited. They would want me to work the edges of square bar so the bar would look "forged". I didn't like doing jobs like that, it was labor intensive, the bars would work harden which made them difficult to straighten, but worst part was it never look like a authentic forging.

What I would do (if your client is only concerned with the budget) heat the bars to a black heat. Just before steel turns red remove the bars from the forge and start hammering.

This is quick, affordable, you won't have the shock/trama that you get with cold working, and the end result will be closer to a "forged look" :D

[Richard Furrer]

Beth,
I echo the concerns of others. In the shop in Florida I worked for we textured many bars under a 25 little giant with small dies (drawing if I recall) and a 250 little giant. Mostly just knocking the corners down.
I remember being lifted off the ground by a 1" bar I was cold texturing just past midway and I was on the wrong end of the lever. It hurt my arm a bit as well. The bars take a set as well and unless you have a fly press or similar to do three point bending you will be hard pressed to straighten them without heat.


A LESSEN LEARNED:
One day I was sinking a hemisphere swage one day by pounding a ball (steel sphere) into a hot block. The swaging went fine, HOWEVER the sphere, being the shape it was, concentrated all the force of the blow on a small spot on the hammer die and made a few very nice small indentations. I did not notice till I forged some bars later and they had this odd raised dimple.

It is good practice to use sacrificial bits covering the dies when doing such work.

Ric

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Authentic? Who cares? It ain't your work, and if you won't do it someone will. Straight? Just tell the customer you'll keep them as straight as you can, but no guarantee. Let him straighten them. Hard on the hammer? Knocking down the corners cold ain't any worse than heavy forging. Hard on the dies? not that I've ever seen. Hard on you? Maybe.

Sorry, I don't often pass up work that I can easily do. I've made darn good money doing exactly this one. Probably done miles of it.

So, now you got lots of input, your choice!

[beth]

thanks v much you lot - its about 90 x 3 ft lengths of 16mm and i did have mis givings but they are in a bit of a hurry and will pay proper money.. just wanted a risk assessment from you lot on my precious hammer - 25kg anyang - didnt buy it off john, just benefited from his advice on it good advice as usual THANKYOU.

[Mills]

270 feet. You'll have an opinion when you are through, whether it is worthwhile. happy hammering.

[jason0012]

I've cold textured lots of stock. 1/4-2 inch It warps a bit, but isn't too big a job to straighten out. It tends to be good money for not much work, and, the shops I always did it for usually used me for that job on a nearly monthly basis. I couldn't estimate how many thousands of feet(or even miles) of 1/2" square I've knocked the corners off of! It can be hard on your dies if they are soft, and you will quickly learn about keeping stock level in the hammer! Nothing about this work should hurt the hammer or cause excessive wear to the dies.

[Judson Yaggy]

Beth- I'll add my voice to what seems to be the consensus. It's doable but a little hard on the machine (within most machines' working limits) and a little rougher on the smith. If it's for inside work you may need to heat the stuff anyway or chemically patina to restore the "black" look as cold hammering will blow off the scale.

[jason0012]

Beth- I'll add my voice to what seems to be the consensus. It's doable but a little hard on the machine (within most machines' working limits) and a little rougher on the smith. If it's for inside work you may need to heat the stuff anyway or chemically patina to restore the "black" look as cold hammering will blow off the scale.

It cant hurt the machine. It is a hammer, it is meant to hammer! What can happen is the cold stock can groove out the dies. Hot forging will do this too, just takes a whole lot longer. Anyone using a hammer ought to learn to hold stock level anyway so the "hard on the smith" is kind of relative. Just think, you wont burn any gas or be standing in front of the forge- that makes a difference when the shop averages 112 degrees in the summer. I always thought breaking the scale was actually an advantage of cold texturing, the client I did a lot of this for painted everything, and often neglected to sandblast. I descale most of my own work anyway, even for indoors applications. I don't like to think of big chunks of scale flaking off at some point down the road.

[nonjic]

Its not actually very good for a power hammer to hit cold stock. The arent designed for it. The idea of a power hammer is the bulk of the blow energy should transfer into the forging.

When You hit cold stock a lot of the energy transfers through it, not to disimilar to striking the dies together (another no no). This causes excessive vibration and shock loading, which can lead to dovetails failing, accelerated guide wear, etc etc, as well as increaing the chances of die fracture.

Im amazed that some reccomend their hammers for cold texturing stock, unless the US is different to the UK it puts the machine into a whole different catagory of guarding the die area etc, potential litigation nightmare.

So, do it by all means, but as a hammer vendor I would say the official line is its a big no no!

[rthibeau]

Do it cold and do it carefully...just don't listen to Grant.... :P

[beth]

i did listen to grant!! i left a message saying i would do them if they deliver them cut to length and sort out any straightening issues themselves... actually i listened to you all , and although the cash would be nice i am not desperate for that work and i wont cry big girly tears if he doesnt get back to me. thanks all B)

[nonjic]

Probably not Sam.

[twcoffey]

Doing this cold with a power hammer is no different that doing on your anvil with a hand sledge.
Most of us would not think of doing this cold at the anvil.
Doing it on the power hammer will take its toll on the hammer heads. Add that cost to your project and reconsider.
I would never do this in the quantity of footage in question cold.
Ted

[Dale Russell]

Beth , just my 2 cents worth , do you ave access ta a flypress ? Just as fast ( well almost ) & you wont end up hurting yourself


Dale Russell ( aka ) Lefty

[jason0012]

I feel like I am stirring the pot a bit, but have to disagree with some of the opinions here. I have done this cold at the anvil. I don't see why it would possibly hurt the machine, I have done this task by hand and know quite well the forces involved. If you have a hammer use it, that's what its for. I rather liked the look of the Anyang hammers but are you saying they break when they hit stuff? I run a 110 yr old hammer and while it shows lots of wear, all the failures I have experienced were when forging hot stuff on a production basis. Try this, does it hurt the hammer to hit cold tooling? My tools are 5160 and 4140 and a few are H13. They are considerably harder than cold HRS. Knocking corners down takes very little force as does most texturing . I would expect most any hammer to be able to handle this work. It is a job that small fast hammers are perfect for. 16mm stock is kinda small too. It is far harder on a hammer to hit nothing than to hit die to die. Die to die is really hard on the dies, the hammer has to withstand the forces of the dies getting smacked together every time it gets used. Hardened dies have a nasty habit of chipping or worse when smacked together. The dovetails and frame ought to be stout enough to handle the forces of the tup hitting the anvil. If not, the hammer needs to be redesigned in a big way, since this is the very operation it is intended for. What I have seen of the Anyang It at least appears to be quite sufficent for this sort of thing and it would surprise me if it suffered any damage from this operation.

[nonjic]

The anyang is as suitable for cold texturing as any other power hammer.

Power hammers are designed for forging hot metal. When you use a spring swage there is hot metal in there. You should never strike the die blocks together with nothing in between on any hammer.

There is cold texturing, and cold texturing. snipping to corners back into 1" square is very differnt to texturing 4 sides of 1" square.

I might just be oversensitive to it because I come from a background of industrial forging, where you would get sacked immediatly if the foreman saw you striking stone cold steel.