Mills

Robert have worked those bits aquired the same way you did. I also have some S-7 and don't believe they are the same thing. Others have pointed out that manufacturers use what is available that will satisfy the requirements cheapest. Junkyard rules are always in effect. With that out of the way the most straightforward approach to this is sacrifice a chunk and see what happens. More importantly what you can do with it. There are some sophisticated ramping up procedures for certain alloys to get the best performance from them. i don't think you'd be able to duplicate that. You have what you have. Working any unknown steel and knowing that is is some type of medium carbon or an alloy steel I start at a lower temperature and see what I can do and how much force is needed. Then increase the temperatures as I become accustomed to its performance. and throw some away as I go. when finished forging I have vermiculite to put hot pieces in for annealing. If of a thin cross section I'll throw in a large piece with it to hold heat longer. Many times i won't bother with annealing and just normalize 2 or 3 times. set aside til it gets cool then reheat and let it cool again. After wards I have to decide what is most likely that I have, air oil or water quenching. take a good guess and try it. That takes sometime and is part of the price you pay for the education. It is also why I don't scrounmgs as much as I used to. Takes a big bite of time to Make something if I only have enough for one. If there is enough that I can make several items then it becomes worthwhile to learn how to work it. Happy hmmering

not that I have seen around here, John. this is actually starting to be exciting, this may be a moneymaker for me since I am surley not the only one who needs pipe and tubing bent and rolled. No pictures it was too hot and I had too many interruptions. I have wrapped a piece of wir to the ram and put tape on the cylinder so that I can track the amount of bend. It works the best of anything yet but still finicky.

Monstermetal I'd drive it up there so to get a chance to meet you and see your shop. If only my truck was up to it. the developed length formula I worked out. it is what I did in setting this up except for the angle of the bend. I went with how much was bent so I did not build a protractor. I'm not sure given this set up that I could. I also considered building a jig as described here using my truck as the motivation. I opted for the bender and now it seems that I may have been better off building the bending jig. Had not thought of refrigeration. I'm sure somebody is.

mark so good of you to offer. HUH? It would be segment bending and I have not thought of a protractor. Developed length formula? its google time. I did put an indicator on the ram so that I can track how much the pipe moves at the ram. Every thing else I've tried has been to see what happened after the fact. Kinda like driving using you rear view mirrors. I'll take some pictures tomorrow hope to report success based on todays work. Still need this knowledge to fully develop this process. It'll likely come up agian. There mus t be somebody rolling pipe around here but I haven't found them. The profits from this job will be used to get me closer to a roller. Then everybody will know about it and THATS when I'll find the guys doing it.

I am bending pipe into a half circle. Specifically 2" pipe 19'9" long, in a 4'10" radius. 2 foot is left on the ends to bury in the ground which leaves 15'9". radius is approximate as long as I get a smooth arc and the ends are 9'8" +/- 2" its fine. Currently I am using a harbor freight bender and have a pattern board to check curve. It is taking a long time to do this. I can't seem to find a technique that allows me to get the same amount of bend each section. so I have a flat spot then too tight. lots of rework. have done stroke counting now i have a wire marking the deflection. still having issues. what say you?

Monstermetal I have seen that website before. I am suspicious of any commentary on a site that looks like it is a moneymaker from what it comments on. i.e. gold, silver, MRE's. With that being said the 22 proofs really aren't very good stats. I agree that some of the statements (vs statistics) are good for provoking thought but seem to be pretty strident. That list is also cherry picked from a variety of sources. #1 & #3 According to the source he is using Harvard Magazine that is an accurate statement. But that is not quite how the original source reads. It is a reference to the borrowing that took place and the results of it. The stats used are onesided as well. Basically everybody was borrowing and spending like no tomorrow. Where? well the middle class is the consumers the majority of the population. What was bought? Overpriced houses and vehicles and lots of consumable but little capital improvement. I point out as well that the top 1% are frugal or cheap *** depending on if they are buying from you or not. When money gets to them it stops and is saved or invested. If they borrow it is for something that will produce income rather than go down in value. So money will always flow that way. as natural as a river. That's my take on it. #2 "61 percent of Americans "always or usually" live paycheck to paycheck, which was up from 49 percent in 2008 and 43 percent in 2007." Yeah.....the slant is aimed at making the middle class feel threatened. He doesn't mention what the income levels are does he? For some anecdotal evidence which is as good as this statement, my recieves telephone calls all day long from people who have trouble with their Credit Cards. She has relayed numerous occasions where unfortunate people thru circumstances beyond their control are needing to increase their credit line. Many times while standing in line with several hundred dollars of merchandise, or at a gas station trying to get home. or at a restaurant where they just treated some friends. usually these individuals are middle income and make 150,000 or less per year. However, almost monthly, such as the fellow at the gas station he made 500k/yr 11 credit cards and was denied again because of being overextended. So the number of people living paycheck to paycheck are making pretty good incomes but are spending even more than that. #7 mmmhmm see above #8 yeah and look at what houses of today look like compared to 1975 Square footage is more, brick has given way to rock, marble/granite countertops, pricey appliances and carpet throughout. #10 consider the source Smirking Chimp trbute to the worst president ever Each of the 'proofs' are suspect at some levels. As is my refutation of them. See I don't think jumping up and down and shouting is gonna help. I'd like to think that we will produce some sane rational LEADERS that will go to the State and Federal capitals and sort out this mess. Beginning with the question "how are you planning to pay for this program?" I hold up Tom Coburn as an example. My mother will disown me for going public like that. Both parents are ardent Southern Democrats. For the comments on the buy American. We need a level playing field. As a businessman I'll pay good money for good work. Quality means a lot to me. Suppose I have the ability to hire either a man for an 8 hr day, 5 days a week w bennies and there are somethings he doesn't do or a mojado who'll be there early stay late and always has a cousin who would like to help if needed. Guess who I'd rather pay the same money to? Immigration trouble is part of it. So is an undervalued yuan. John Larson related to me who he listens to for current economic news and ries has some good input as well. For a conservative view Pete Morici and a bit more liberal Concord Coalition. Morici really gets after the Chinese. I agree, How is it that one of the better selling hammers comes from China. It isn't so much the low wages as it is the undervalued yuan. From what I am understanding, if the exchange rates were closer together between US and China a lot of the national debt would disappear. Now I am in over my head at this point so it would not be hard to hold me down and watch me bubble. I have a growing conviction that blacksmiths represent a movement to return this nation to some sense of order. It seems all of us no matter what our social or religious beliefs may be, are a pretty conservative bunch that BELIEVE in a strong work ethic and have a tremendous sense of justice.

Just got back to this, been busy. My word! there has been a lot of frank discussion. I'd have to say that in general I'd like to work around anyone of you guys under any conditions. There is a shared passion for integrity and grit. Not many prima donnas around here. I feel the same as monstermetal, there's a bunch I didn't know and still have to learn. I am one of the shops Gerald don't care much for. But when its all said and done the 8 buck an hour fella gets paid better than me. And he gets to walk away whenever he feels like it. As I get to be a better business man and salesman that is changing. And I won't feel bad when the same fella does the same job for the same pay. I have improved myself on my own. Now in my shop if a man makes improvements then he gets paid better because he is more valuable. A good shop model would be helpful for me to create working conditions that is a common theme in this thread. As a mechanic I had several thousand dollars in tools to earn a living. I started with 2 five gallon buckets carried from car to car then added a little kitchen cart and hung wrench pouches on three sides and metal tool box on top. I always set aside $5 min per week for tools. I bought general theory books and read them. It would be nice to find some body who would be that dedicated to metal work. They bring a welder with them and work late because they want to finish a tough job. How does one cultivate that? Not to make a silk purse from a sows ear, but can that be instilled, encouraged, fan the flames? How?

You're correct Tim, but since the discussion came up it allows us to get some air and light into the room. I have never been union but have felt the disapproval of my co workers when I could outwork them by a wide margin. I have been approached and told I was making everyone else look bad. My thought at the time was If we were playing volleyball (our lunch time passtime) I'd be a very valuable person and everyone would want me on the team. I'm not good at sports but I am good at working. I have been naive enough to believe that being a good hand was enough to secure a position with a company. Didn't need to worry about the money thing either. Momma did raise a fool. Looked up Rick Berman got a lot of Star Trek references, seems he was the reason Star Trek was saved and also destroyed, depending on who's telling. Richard Berman on the other hand is a well known Washington lobbyist on behalf of the food industry, and is working tirelessly to thwart any change in the enforcement of our border laws so that restaurants won't be destroyed by expensive labor. What a guy. He is the driving force behind unionfacts.com. So who do you want to believe some overpaid union rep or a D.C. lawyer? :rolleyes:

I started a thread in Business side of Blacksmithing about unions. thought it might be more appropriate over there and allow for reasoned discourse.

I followed the Blacksmiths needed thread because of the discussion on Unions and the pros and cons. I have learned some from that and would like to know more. It seems there is some passion on this subject as well. I have been ardently anti union in the past and remain on that side of the argument mostly. However, when you get away from a small company it is much easier to be just a faceless cog in the machine and tasked by some college boy to go do something that may get you hurt. A tip of the hat to those who fought for better working conditions when businessmen felt they could do whatever they wanted, it was ordained by God. I am of the opinion that Big Labor looks a lot like Big Business tho and each want to keep more for themselves. The laborer is just the rag doll they are fighting over. Since I don't know really, I started this thread to see what might come of it.

An issue I have had to deal with is believing that once I have drank water and have a fan going, I can then produce as if it was a balmy spring day. Nope. Especially not this year. I really feel the age factor now. And a bit of a guilt trip since I shouldn't be this out of shape and I need to get things done and and and... I had Heat exhaustion at Ft Polk. It was after duty hours, I sponged a beer which got me silly drunk, then passed out. I came around with a couple of friends pouring electrolytes into me as my legs tried to wrap themselves around my neck like a contortionist. after several hours I was finally able to actually sleep. Next day would have been nice to have been on light duty but the best I could manage was to drink water every 15 minutes and report to Top that I was doing so. Walking the firing ranges at Polk is job and I was the BRM bandit so I really couldn't let on to the Pvts. At Ft Sill we had an aggressive beat the heat routine. 1 qt every thirty minutes, chug it down and lift it over your head without stop. In You or On You, Wet heads will be doing pushups once out of Hi heat category. On a particularly tough day I had 2 pvts go to the hospital at the end of the day and 3 more before lights out. I was pushing the water hard and these guys were some of my more motivated soldiers. I had a lot of explaining to do and no answers. I was at the hospital first thing in the morning and discussed the problem with a doctor. He told me (behind his hand) to push the salt a bit more, they had flushed the electrolytes out with all the water they had drank. Yeah, drink water, a little yogurt and chips, gatorade, fans, AVOID ALCOHOL, don't push so hard, someone else around if possible. Heat stress indicators

I'd say to sum it up: some like'em a lot, some a little and some not at all.

I have found that using them with some thought they work very well as a wrench. Fit them to the bolt or nut so that a corner is engaged in the serrations, clamp pretty tight but don't collapse the nut or your working against yourself. Rather than pull or push as you would with a good fitting wrench, strike it either with your hand or a mallet. This impact generally breaks loose very difficult to remove fasteners. I stumbled on this when regularly replacing the filter in GM carburetors in the 70's and 80's. The nut stripped even with a proper fitting wrench.

Kudos Bentiron, reminds me of of a kinder gentler era when... yesterday I had to have a talk with my daughter and nephew, 21 and 14 respectively, when a man pulled up to the shop and I was busy on the phone. They were taking a break and when I waved for them to handle it, rec'd the look. they rec'd the look. When the man had left, an explanation of courtesy and how I expect it to be displayed in my shop followed. Always training.

Most straightforward method is get your firepot and air supply rustled up. Then build a suitable frame to hold them where you would like to do your forging, add brick to taste. That is about as definite an answer that can be given without knowing more of your equipment. Start with the firepot. Do you have one? what are its features? does it need a lip to sit on or does it bolt to something. Do it have a tuyere (tweer) and an ash dump on the bottom? Are you going to need a hood? will it be in a building? Pictures would be helpful, as there aren't any sizes to go by except the sizes you provide. Now features is another matter such as height and layout in relation to the anvil. whether you have need of an extra large hearth or if it is desirable. I built my first forge so I could move it around and would know how I would like it when I went permanent. And I may build a permanent one some day, I'm on my 6th forge. each has been different from the last. I have three currently a large and small gasser and traveling coal burner. With the above in mind what else can you tell us? How to build my first forge may help with some ideas as well as Solid fuel forges

Rather than age it is alert positive attitude conflicting with dull negative attitude. Kinda like matter/antimatter coming in contact.

LOL around here folks wonder why I refer to myself as a Crusty Old Fart in Training. It is because I still have so much to learn from Masters ThomasPowers and Mainely,Bob. LOL!!!

Sweet.

Thomas, next year you gonna need to start looking again? I hope I'm reading that wrong. You just about have Socorro trained. My wife and I are going thru a grumpy time. She is in customer service dealing with credit card calls. She has to field complaints and abuse from idiots who are unable to understand that even tho they make a half million a year, their credit is no good due to being overextended and overdrawn six ways from sunday. I have a difficult time not being cranky when I explain something for the third time. As for help at the stores, mostly I have fun when I get attitude from a surly clerk. I WILL brighten someones day, either when I meet them or when I leave. It is their choice. I have made a couple of good contacts that way. Mostly I become the old fart its best to leave alone type. And age is not criteria. I also am spending more time at the local supply houses because of competent help and a knowledge base that is unheard of from the box stores.

Look thru the Iforgeiron site and find the post "it followed me home". that lends itself well to your suggestion.

here is what I use on one of my forges. it fits what you are asking. http://elliscustomknifeworks.hightemptools.com/propaneregulators.html

Yep now that we know where you are, consider a lot of openings. Removable walls would be good. open air building with well insulated roof to keep the heat off you. A look around at traditional cajun structures will tell you a lot about good design except you need a taller ceiling.

I think you could use this design. I would probably go with an upset area at the tenon and arch the piece some or leave the top flat and run a taper out to the hook. or start with some thing a little larger and draw it out.

That is a nice size for small projects, and there are a lot of smithys in the world that do a bunch in less. If you have options though bulid the largest you can with a 10' wall open rafter design. This allows you to maneuver the material that you cannot imagine ever working with. Will it be metal? insulation will help a lot. Ventilation everywhere so that you can catch a breeze and let out smoke. How much electricity available? any 3 phase? put 110V outlets about 6-8 feet and a 220V on a couple of walls. overhead doors are a must have and std garage doors aren't really up to the task. get bigger. Now with all of that be said. What can you afford? That is gonna drive the selections. What do you plan to make? That will guide the priorities. The more generalized your plans are the more of every thing you will need. If you like the double entendre of Sinister it IS your smithy. It could be an asset or a liability depending on how you approach the work. Its part of the first impression, so is that what you want people to perceive (negative, dark, eerie). If you are into Goth it may be the best name for you. If you specialize in torture/bondage devices you have made a wise selection as well. To try to spin that into a latin lesson may be a stretch for a name. It takes a bit away from your focus which is ironwork with the exceptions noted. You owe me two cents. ;)