Muttt Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I have been trying to weld a piece of one inch crane cable that I got from the salvage yard. I have a 11" x 18 inch deep propane forge. I have a 1 1/2 pipe welded to the side and i am using a blower so I know I am getting the forge hot enough. I have two hard fire bricks and they glow orange when I am up to temp. I have poured on the borax (20 mule team) and twisted it open in the vise then heat it and then add more borax and heat it then take it to the vise and twist it tight. Add more borax, heat it. After doing this about four times, it still just xxxx cable. I can't get this stuff to start to turn into a billet know matter what I do. Any suggestions. I leave it in the forge till the whole thing is glowing. At this point, I have no idea. Mutt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Cable is kind of tricky and dirty. I have heard smiths at a hammer in complain about beginners making a mess with their failed cable welds. And, depending on the crowd, they may not be so helpful. The best way to figure this out is to have an experienced person show you with his cable and your forge. That will help eliminate some of the variables. You say "i am using a blower so I know I am getting the forge hot enough." Just because you use a blower does not mean that you can forge weld. One good test (but still not guaranteed) is to put two pieces of steel rod about 1/4" square or round in, and see if they stick when you touch them together. This will also help to calibrate your eye. I have a blacksmith friend who is color blind. He can forge, but he has trouble welding, since he cannot tell the difference between yellow and too white. He relies on tricks like burning/melting a few pieces of scrap and the stick test. Once he calibrates, he can use the brightness as a guide. Is the cable clean? Is the flux completely covering it (glistening and bubbly)? Did you try twisting, hammering, twisting? Are you hitting too hard? When the cable is just consolidating, light blows do much more work than heavy blows. You will feel it begin to stick as you are hammering, then you can start hitting it harder. It also helps hitting it into the anvil step or a half round or v swage. Get some help. You will need all the help you can get, preferably in person. If you need help on the forum, post a few pictures of your forge at what you think is welding heat, fluxed cable, how you are hitting, spark test on the cable and results of the stick test. It is really hard, but not impossible, to help over the Internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 (edited) It sounds to me like your no where near hot enough. When my gasser is at a moderate welding heat it hurts to look at it with the naked eye. Try a wool lining instead of hard firebrick. When your at welding temp the flux will look different on the billet, It will run around like kids on a playground, or melting butter on a teacake. Youll know it when you see it! - you will need a tinted welding shade (no.3 or no,5) to look at it whilst its in the forge. You also need to adjust your forge so its not scaling the billet to much. Just leave mild steel bars in and see how adjusting the gas and air affects the scale levels. Get a C.O detector, running rich (low scale) = more nasty gas output from the forge. When you pull the billet from the forge the borax will smoke a bit if your at a good welding heat! Get the heat right and the cable will xxxx near weld itself. Good luck, its fun when it sticks edit... you only get a few seconds from removing the cable from the forge, and hitting / twisting it, sounds daft but reherse the movements of going from the forge to the anvil / vice with the billet. You dont have a spare two seconds to pick up your hammer. Just one smooth movement is best! Edited September 2, 2009 by John N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
781 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I agree with the first answer about touching two roads together. With your cable hot place a piece of rod that has been drawn to a point into the forge. When both are the same color toch the end of he rod to the cable. If they dont stick on the forge they wont stick out of it. Maybe you are going the other way and having it too hot also. Either way the touch rod is the way to go with a gasser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithgartner Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Welding heat would be, bright yellow almost white. The size of your forge is cavernous, especially for one burner, choke it down to about 6" dia, with Kao-wool, or something similar, use the bricks as the floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweany Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 there are a couple hints here. but yeah sounds like it's not hot enough to me too.Bronze Cable Damascus Tutorial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttt Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 (edited) From what you guys are saying, I am picking up at least two problems that I have been having. The first is the time out of forge. I was taking too long to hit it. Like you said if there if just a little bit of time to hit it then I was blowing it. I was told my someone to twist it first. So, I would throw it into the vice and twist it, then take it to the anvil and hammer a little. I bet it was probably sticking at the anvil and then I was knocking it apart at the anvil. The other thing is heat. I may no be getting it hot enough. I put the borax on and it bubbles up and looks like a sugary crust, then when I stick it into the forge, the borax just melts and runs down into the cable. It is not "dancing around" as you say. It just melts and runs into the cable like a normal solder would run into a wire. I think I may have gotten it once or twice by twisting it in the vise, cause it seemed to stick. But then went over the the anvil and hammered it loose again. I'll try again today and reply to this thread and let ya know how it went. The last pic I tried to take with the forge running ..... all you could see was an orange ball. It was too bright to take a pic of. As far as wool and brick. I have the inside of the pipe wrapped with two inches of wool and then I have bricks laying in the bottom (on top of the wool) I wanted the bricks as sacrificial so I wouldn't burn out my wool with flux. Here is a pic. Cold Forge Hot Forge Hope the pictures help a little bit. I will try soaking the cable a little longer. Maybe what I thought was hot enough just wasn't. I was afraid of burning out the cable. But apparently, I wasn't even close. I will also try the stick test. I have a couple pieces of 1/2 inch square stock that will work nicely for that. And, lastly, I think I didn't have the metal hot enough. The metal was only bright orange. Cant really say I've seen the color yellow (on the metal) I have seen yellow flare off the metal, but I think that's just the flame reacting with the flux. Thanks for all the input. Like everything else ..... there is a learning curve. Mutt Edited September 2, 2009 by Muttt Edited for content and signature Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 (edited) You're running it with the whole end open? You should stand two bricks up at the front to close the opening to just what you need get the part in. Or put a spacer on each side and lay a brick across the top. Try to heat your house with one wall gone! Be better if you point the burner up at about 45 degrees. In industrial furnaces the rule is the flame heats the refractory and the incandescent refractory heats the work. The flame itself is incomplete combustion and contains super heated oxygen, unburned fuel and all sorts of nasties. Yes, tighten the twist, then put it back in the forge to reheat to welding temperature. On cable you can use lots of flux. Edited September 2, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucegodlesky Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I mig weld the cable ends before I start welding. That allows me to untwist the cable and brush out a lot of crud and corruption. Whack it a few times on the anvil, you'll be surprised how much crap comes out. Then do the welding sequense. Twist it 3-4 times. You'll feel it if the cable begins to twist off. Saves a lot of hammering doing it that way. For me anyhow. bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecelticforge Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 (edited) I also recommend wearing dark safety glasses. That lets you look into the fire and watch the metal become a beautiful mother of pearl color (red background of course). MOD note: please read about eye protection in the safety section, retna burn from welding is no joke Edited November 11, 2009 by mod07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fat pete Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 i clean anything i weld ...i will clean the metal of any mill scale till i have nuttin but metal...the cable i have done is good and clean before i heat it up...i have 7 strand cable i took apart and soaked in kerosene for 2 days before it was used....also after you pull it out of the fir put a wrench on it and make it tighter.....do that a couple of times,,,then start to hit it...you will feel it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I'm not sweet on blown burners, but I recall reading that too much air can cool your flame. Is there a dump gate or air shutter in your setup to control air blast? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmercier Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I weld a lot of cable, once you know how, it's pretty easy. The two big things are getting the cable clean, and getting it hot enough. You can clean the cable in the forge, with a lot of wire brushing, heating, and fluxing. You'll be able to tell when it's clean by when you stop getting a bunch of crud out when you brush it. Heat is the most important part. My guess is you're not near hot enough. At forge welding temp you cant look in the forge, it hurts your eyes, and you will get sunburn standing in front of the forge for too long. Good eye protection from UV is important, you dont realize how much you're giving off when you forge weld until your forehead is bright red the next day and starts to peal. When your forge is at the point where you cant really look in it, the cable when its' the right temp should just about 'disappear' into the forge, you'll know it's the same temp as the forge. At this point the flux should be a slick glassy coat over the cable. That's the point of the flux actually, to coat it and prevent oxygen from getting inside. When you're setting the weld, a twist works fine, but the important thing is, do your first weld, and then brush it off quickly with a wire brush, re-flux, and get it back in the forge again before it cools down much at all. Be quick about it, don't allow excessive fire scale to form (as you've got a lot of surface area due to the strands) Once the initial weld is set, take your hammer... put it aside, grab a hammer half the size. Trust me, do this. You do NOT want to hit hard at all. You will not be doing any 'forging' blows for a while. Now while at a welding heat still, with your light hammer, follow along the twisted strands of the cable, moving from the back to the tip in quick light blows, twisting the cable to keep your blows on one strand. then go to the next strand. When you're losing heat, brush it off again with your wire brush, reflux and get it back to welding heat. You'll repeat this several times, and as you do it you'll be able to feel the cable consolidating and solidifying under the hammer. Eventually you'll start to hear the difference as your anvil starts to ring through the light blows on the cable, that's the indication that you're basically solid. Only when you reach this point should you pick back up your normal forging hammer to work on the billet and draw it out. After you do a few of these you'll get a good feel for it. It can also help, when you're doing the hammering along the strands, if you use a bottom half circle swage of a slightly smaller size than the cable you are welding. A good swage block with a series of half circles is great because as the cable consolidates you can keep using the progressively smaller sizes to cradle the cable. The bottom swage will help prevent any accidental 'blow out' from too hard of a blow while the weld is being set, and can help you keep the cable in place for faster more efficient work while at welding heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttt Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 (edited) Well, I followed alot of the advise put out earlier in this post. I took what little pieces I had left of the Kaowool and relined the forge with a second layer of wool. This reduced the inner space of the forge by at least 1/3 if not a little more. I took a small piece of soft fire brick and place it into the opening. It closed what was left of the opening by half. So, I actually reduced the opening by 75 percent (I think). Anyway, It made a huge difference in size ...... heat and my gas/air mixture. This thing blows way way hotter than it did before. I put a piece of small bar stock in there and it got way too hot (compared to the temp I normally smith at). Anyhow here is a pic of my changes..... So, I took this sorry piece of cable I have been working on for the last two days and I put it back in there. I quickly got it to that "yellow" color. I pulled it out and put it back in the vice and qave it a twist. You could really feel the difference. So I poured on the flux and I saw it dancing around like boiling water on the outside of the bar (like it was described to me earlier). So, I stuck it back in the fire and watched the flux quickly dissappear. Anyhow, I must have cooked all the carbon out of it over the last two days because at this point it basically started to come apart in the forge. The strands of the cable were breaking and burning on the ends. When I pulled it out, I tried to lightly tap it and it got worse. But, the rest of it basically just ended up a burnt out bundle of wire'y crap. I gave it another twist and I could tell that the stuff in the center was actually welded together .... but the outter cable were all burned out and it all just cam apart. The last inch or so actually appears that it actually welded up. So, I just scrapped that piece and will try again with a new piece. Here is a pic of the sorry cable that was left over when I was all done.................... Thanks for all the help so far. By the way, filling your tank really helps when your trying to tune your forge. For a while there, I couldn't figure out why I couldn't keep the flame constant. Then, I realized my tank was empty. Anyway, I really appreciate that last post. There is alot of really good info in that post. Hopefully, it will all come together next time I try with a new piece of cable. I always weld the ends so they dont unravel when I heat it up. Mutt Edited September 3, 2009 by Muttt Edited for spelling and adding content Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Be careful now your forge is so much hotter to prevent burning the steel. The way you describe it falling apart on the outside sounds like the outer layers got too hot and started burning but the centre was just right. Part of the art of welding is to move your piece in and out of the fire to allow it to heat up uniformly and not to overheat the outer layers while having relatively cold inner layers. You want it the same heat all the way through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 sounds like this thread is going to have a happy ending in the next couple of days!! (and keep an eye on the scaling levels (gas mix) )) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttt Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 well ...... I've really appreciated all the help with this. I haven't been able to fire up my forge lately do to weather. It rains alot here in Washinton State and it's getting to be that time of year. I hope to give the cable another try this weekend. I'll drop a line and let ya'll know how it goes this time. By the way, where is the best place to pick up some half circle swages or v notches. Actually that could be a new project. get a nice fat piece of bar stock and make notches in it using different size bars as a shape and hammer it into the bar stock to make the half circles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 A couple of points to re-iterate, especially now that you've reduced your forge volume and blocked off the door and are more than likely getting plenty of heat. You didn't say where in washington you're at... goto the user control panel and put in your location. Sea level is different than 5000' elevation. Make sure your forge is running slightly rich. Look to have a little bit of "dragon's breath" (orange flame) coming from the opening. Not a lot, but a little bit. 10xx series steel can be a little bit "red-short". Ie. If you get them too hot, they will crumble on you when struck, and can be ruined even if not struck by getting them too hot. Forging temps in my gas forge with cable are a little short of the blinding white/yellow. Get some number 5 gas welding goggles so you can look in your forge without hurting your eyes. You'll see the flux dancing, when it reaches that temp, let it soak for just a minute, then come out and weld it. Remember to rotate your piece in the forge. I actually time it, every 30 seconds I rotate until I'm at an orange heat, then every 15 'til I've seen the flux dancing on all sides, then weld. My last billet was 8" of 1.25" cable. I welded it in three sections. Ie, I hit the metal about three overlapping blows, then back to the forge. since I was back in the forge before I was below a high orange heat, I only timed the rotations at 15 seconds on subsequent welding heats, that means I was coming back out ready to weld in one minute since I rotated 1/2 turn the first time, then 1/4 turn, then 1/2 turn. I think it actually speeds the process up overall to quickly come out, strick the three or four blows, then quickly back in. You need to have your brush at hand so that you don't waste time finding it etc. and end up being at a lower heat before you can get back to the forge. A half round bottom swage is nice, but the step of your anvil will work with angled blows. Good luck, ML Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttt Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 Well, all I have for an anvil right now is a hunk of railroad track. Works well for knifes, but no hardy hole and lacking for anything like welding. I am in Bremerton Wa. I am deffinitely at sea level. Anyway, I am using some torch goggles and they work really well to look inside. I don't ever see the flux dancing inside the forge. It just melts down and soaks into the cable. When I pull the cable out, and pour on some powdered borax, it crusts up like sugar and then melts into a buttery fluid and dances around on the cable .... like boiling butter in a skillet. Anyway, then I stick it back in and whatever flux is caked on the outside just melts away. Not sure what that means. The weather is supposed to be nice, so I am gonna fire it up tomorrow and try again. Mutt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttt Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 Still raining. Been waiting to try this welding again. But, it's been raining off and on for three days. Wish my forge was covered ...... guess I'll have to wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin (the professor) Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I agree with everyone else - you are now burning the cable. Get a new piece, burn the lubricant out in forge. When stops smoking and burning, flux. to be safe, test forge with plain flat bar of carbon steel and make sure you are hot enough to weld that bar but not so hot that you burn it. Just stick two bars together with flux and tap lightly on anvil. If they stick, move on to cable. flux, put in forge to soak, make sure whole thing is welding heat but none of it is sparking and burning. If you see sparklers, it is too late, get it out of the heat immediately. You will have to grind off outer layer if that happens. When you reach the yellow-white heat (seen through protective glasses to not burn your eyes), put immediately on anvil and hit rapidly and firmly (not real hard) with hammer. Fee it stick, keep hitting fast as you can with firm blows until the heat drops (about 10-15 secs). Hit one side 6 r 8 times, rotate 90deg and hit 6 or 8 times. Flux, back in forge, heat, back to anvil, this time rotate 45deg, hit 6 or 8 times, then rotate 90 deg and hit six or 8 times. Work in overlapping sections down the bar (with two heats dedicated to each section as described above). After TWO courses of this, I then do another course at welding heat where I forge the cable billet into a rectangular cross section. If it is already rectangular, then I forge it to invert the short and long sides of the rectangle. This last forging complete with significant change in cross section makes sure that the whole thing has actually welded. sorry for long response - but this has worked well for me. Also, get good tongs so you can hold the darn stuff. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBuzek Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) My first suggestion is to get some satinite on that wool.What yu have there is very dangerous! The uncoated wool when heated will give off fibers that will get in you lungs and do alot of damage.After coating with satinite you can also put on a coat of ITC 100 and that will make your forge a lot hotter. Alot of good tips on welding cable.Have fun but be safe,we want you doing this for a while. Stan Edited November 11, 2009 by mod07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 you know that when it stops raining, and your ready for another go youll run out of propane dont ya! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttt Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) Nope ......... gotta new tank of gas ready to go. It doesn't look half bad today. May be able to get some done this afternoon. I was told the wool fibers were a hazard when cutting. But, once installed in the forge and all the loose fibers have been blown out, that it was safe to work with. I need to go back to the shop were I bought this and get the MSDS and be certain. Mutt Edited September 8, 2009 by Muttt content Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 As I understand the wool is not a hazard when cutting new stuff, it only gets nasty once its been fired. Your on a pretty minimum risk running it outside I would have thought.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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