Hi Dan,

Your list is fairly accurate the only one who you missed off was Ambrose, he suggest to me to start a thread on this forum for tips and tricks / shortcuts. I have no problem firewelding myself to date just would like to know if any other smiths have found any quirks they find makes it easier for themselves.

Thanks.

 

 

we merged this into the existing thread, for easier location of the information, there is no need for multipole threads of the same information.

i have to stand on one leg and whistle whilst the metal heats up, otherwise nothing will stick ;)

 

 

nah, confidence is the biggest key to success I have found.

fire welding like most welding is incredibly material specific.

 

If you are interested in the subject I would recommend the "solid Phaze welding of metals" by Tylecote. Its out of print and goes into commercial forge welding of materials from an industrial perspective lots of useful stuff.

 

Wrought iron and mild steel can easily be welded without flux , they are stable enough at the temperature the iron oxide starts to melt on their surface to be forge welded easily in a coke or coal fire . You must allow for material loss to the fire but if your at Hereford then this is a pretty standard weld bit of local upsetting and scarf kind of affair.

 

 They also weld loverly with flux ,borax  works well at lower temp ,it does not like the screaming hot temp of Uk style sparking fire welding. Borax and silver sand mixed work well  at slightly higher temp and silver sand at screaming hot .

 

 Carbon steels need to be treated with care as they will easily lose carbon to the fire and burn /melt at a lower temp than wrought /mild steel ...........but..... they are much easier to weld and stick better at lower temperature. They need to be fluxed using borax or welded in some kind of controlled environment (canister welded) .

 I can weld up spear or axe sockets in carbon steel that would be impossible for me to do in wrought iron/mild where the material loss at welding temp would be a problem.

 forge welding in oil , coal ,gas , coke, charcoal or even an oxy propane super heater nozzle all work well.

 

If mixing materials try and find a heat that does not trash material with the lowest working temp.

 

 Same old basics as have always been mentioned.

 Temp 

 Time 

 Pressure

 absence of oxygen (or more specifically oxide)

 

Forge welding is often quicker than a full weld /prep electric welding (especially if you are looking for a forged finish) BUT do not assume it is in any way better mechanically unless you have had it tested.

 Most of what I make is forge welded (being mainly damascus) there is nothing like wadging some material together . for me it has always been the most magical part of blacksmithing...well that and heat treating.........

Wadging? I like that and have adopted it,,thanks

No tricks, just twists and wrinkles.

 

Tap the two separate pieces against the anvil to knock off some dross before cohering them on the anvil face.

 

Think fast-slow-fast in relative terms. Get to the anvil quickly. Then slow down slightly to get a good scarf match. When mated, get to the hammer rapidly.

 

When the welding heat is reached, don't look at the pieces as they are withdrawn and on the way to the anvil, or there may be a sparkler/mesmerizing effect which will slow you down. Instead, look at the anvil, because that's where you're going.

 

Have the anvil placed so that a step or two will bring you into hammering position.

 

Practice "dry runs" (old military term). Get the "dance" down pat by practicing your movements repeatedly without heat. This will offer you some non-cognition when you perform the actual weld.

I took an unknown material but it was a coil spring.    My sons friend dropped it by.  Prolly from a small car...     It was ~1/2" diameter.   I bent about 3/4" back onto itself.   Fluxed, heated to just barely sparking and hammered.   Basically it came from together into a crumbly splatter.    What did I do wrong?   What happened?   I may have hit it a little bit hard?   It wasn't a tap....  But I did not expect it to just fly apart.   I am not a forge welding expert by any means!

A picture of the crumbly splatter would help.  

Isn't a coil spring high carbon? If so, probably too much heat.

You overheated it.

You over heated the steel. Forge welding coil spring is tricky you really have to watch your heat. They call this problem "hot short".

If the coil spring was 5160, it is notoriusly hard to weld to itself. This aside I agree that you overheated it.

 

Daniel

sounds like what they used to cal "crystalize"

yea, medium and high carbon steels dont need as much heat to weld as mild steel does..The chromium in 5160 can also make it hard to weld to itself, though in this case id guess to much heat.

Too hot, first hit too hard. Too bad. At least the material was free.

I took an unknown material but it was a coil spring.    My sons friend dropped it by.  Prolly from a small car...     It was ~1/2" diameter.   I bent about 3/4" back onto itself.   Fluxed, heated to just barely sparking and hammered.   Basically it came from together into a crumbly splatter.    What did I do wrong?   What happened?   I may have hit it a little bit hard?   It wasn't a tap....  But I did not expect it to just fly apart.   I am not a forge welding expert by any means!

It is the nature of our craft for instant intuition/ judgement to be the determining factor in instantaneous, dynamic, operations.  It is one of the most interesting aspects of our craft.  Smiths share with potters this sensual, time constrained, and immediate action with the medium; all directed towards a pre-determined result. 

You can teach yourself.  However, practice and failure takes a long time.  Look for an able smith who is willing to teach.  Also, find an organization in your area for information and support.  Until you can find your teacher or some one who can help you with a particular problem this will move you forward. 

When I started there were no organizations or readily available sources.  I read everything that was available in the 1960's, but then there were still a few old men around who were retired masters of the craft or practitioners of it, or old guys who who knew somebody who was. Old men really helped me.  I got the best leads and introductions when I started doing craft festivals. 

Sometimes the smell of a coal fire and the sound of a hammer against hot steel will draw old men to my forge.  It would draw me to you.

As mentioned you generally weld higher carbon steels under the sparking temp and some of the high alloy steels will cottage cheese on you at what would be a good working temp for a plain steel. Why when given an unknown steel it can be a good idea to run the junkyard steel tests on it to learn how it likes to be worked/heat treated *before* you try to make something from it.

I attempted a forge weld on some spring steel.   It was coil spring.   It was about 1" of of steel bent back on itself.   I heated, fluxed and then heated to weld heat.    It was just barely sparking.   I hit it and it crumbled.    What did I do wrong?

 

 

Did you miss the reply's to this same question you asked on 26 Dec? where are the photos so we can see?

I attempted a forge weld on some spring steel.   It was coil spring.   It was about 1" of of steel bent back on itself.   I heated, fluxed and then heated to weld heat.    It was just barely sparking.   I hit it and it crumbled.    What did I do wrong?

 

 

Did you miss the reply's to this same question you asked on 26 Dec? where are the photos so we can see?

Too hot in my experience coil spring is very sensitive to being over heated.  If it is sparking it is too hot.   Try heating to where it is just yellow and the borax is flowing it will start to look sweaty. 

No steel or iron needs to be sparkling when you weld it.

 

As already noted, if you are trying to do anything other than make semi-disposable tools, coil spring is about the last thing you want to be using.  It is known to (often) be a real pig.

My experience is that you need to assume nothing regarding scrap steel, leaf and coil springs included.  Always do a test piece regarding forgability, hardening, tempering, welding, etc..  I've had some coil springs which were great for everything and some that wouldn't do much of anything for me.  Life is too short to mess about with some sort of weird alloy which was great for its original use but is crap for any repurposing.

 

One rule of thumb is that the older the source object the more likely it is to be amenable to being made into something else.  Springs off old horse drawn farm implements and pre WW2 autos tend to work better than modern alloy steels for our purposes.  That's not always true but, in my experience, it is more often than not.

 

Historically,

George M.