Tom Lumpkins Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) Hello Boy's. I have been a member here for awhile now. and was doing my forging under our carport. well winter come in and it got cold out there and I decided it was time to build me a building. I told the wife I wasn't doing any forging till I got the building done. and I didn't. I didn't realize it would take so long to get it all done. Well its been done for a couple weeks and I'm back at it. still just as green as I was back in December. I attempted to do some forge welding back when I was working under the carport and. I had one ring that actually stuck. But never did learn. I was in the chat room last nite. { We got a bunch of good people in here} and was telling them about my failure. They give me some pointers. Yesterday I had Glenn on the phone while I was attempting to weld a ring. I know its rough trying to help someone over the phone, and I know he wished he was there to help. But even with his help I still failed. But today I'm back at it. I'm on vacation and got plenty of coal. I'm going to list the steps and please let me know if I'm wrong, I value your help and and very grateful. 1. get the fire going 2. make the bee's nest and poke a hole. 3. after the coal burns off and turns to coke.put the ring in and bring up to orange, pull out and brush and flux. quick enough so that it doesn't cool to red. 4. put back in fire and wait for first spark. then pull out on 2nd spark and tap the joint together. 5. put back in fire and bring back up to sparkle and then finish weld. one other question, Do I keep the air going.while waiting for welding temp. Edited April 10, 2009 by WagonMaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Everybody does it a little differently but your basic description is correct. I bring the heat up fairly quickly so I have a lemon-white fire and then turn the blast down to a whisper. This allows the piece to soak so it's hot all the way thru and not just on the surface. You also don't want a dazzling shower of sparks because that means the piece is burned - instead, you want a few bursting sparks from the fire and the work to be the same color as the fire with a slippery, wet appearance. I'm sure others will also add their 2 cents... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 As the illustration shows, you need to be about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way up in the fireball. Air is directly proportional to heat, more air, more heat. Allow the metal to soak up heat so the inside is the same temp as the outside. This step is more important with larger size material. As you approach welding heat, watch for the sparks, one spark - get ready, two sparks - get set, three sparks - go to the anvil and bump the metal to create the weld, then quickly back into the fire and up to just sparking temp again. When you go to the anvil this time, you can finish the weld and shape the joint to match the rest of the stock. Practice, practice, practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Have you tried knocking the flux off before shutting the parts together? The weld won't hold if there's any impurities in the joint. This is also why some people make the jointing surfaces convex, the flux etc is forced out sideways with the first few blows. I find it more difficult to weld using coal as it seems harder to see the metal as it heats; with coke it's possible to look between the grains and watch for a sort of 'shimmery' texture on the surface of the steel. Watching for sparks is a bit hit and miss as you don't know whether both parts have reached the right temp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 NExt time you are in the area, rather than Coffee, lets hit my shop, I will get ya welding in a hour or less. As motivation, and risk of embarrassment, I can get my apprentices to weld. Actually we can still have coffee, I just bought a new coffee pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 my forge master told me 2 things that really helped, 1- don't stare at the fire the whole time, you lose the receptivity in the eye from the brightness, and you need to see the flux burning off and the metal begin to run on the surface. 2. kiss her before you take her to the dance, meaning the first couple taps are light, if you have done everything right, the metal wants to stick, and "setting the pieces" is done with a light tap, then the pressure and heat will work with you. If I could add my own thoughts to his I would say, don't hurry, and do the dance before you actually perform the function so you know where every tool must be placed. Once you start to do it on a regular basis, you will feel utterly satisfied, then one day, nothing will work, and you will wonder, what the heck?? somedays it just does not work, and dealing with it is part of the art as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 NExt time you are in the area, rather than Coffee, lets hit my shop, I will get ya welding in a hour or less. As motivation, and risk of embarrassment, I can get my apprentices to weld. Actually we can still have coffee, I just bought a new coffee pot. sounds like a great offer...........my forge runs on black coffee :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
781 Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Something that works well in a gas forge is to have a touch rod. This is a piece of 3/16 or less rod forged to a point. bring your piece (s) your are welding to heat when they are close to temp heat the touch rod to the same temp by color. Touch the pieces together in the forge. If they dont want to stick together there they will not stick on the anvil either. This lets you know the color your iron needs to be to weld. Another problem is dont weld weld on a cold anvil as this will steal heat from your piece causing hou problems. Most important is practice practice practice. Bob Patrick once told me at a demo it is like Olympic figure skater you cant do it once a month and expect to win. When I weld with carcoal I dont heat it till I get sparks. I heat till what I think is hot enough then shut off the blower for a minute or so then bring to anvil and weld. A ring or attached billet is easier to weld than drop the tongs welds Good Luck. Once you get it the next and next will get much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 my forge master told me 2 things that really helped, 1- don't stare at the fire the whole time, you lose the receptivity in the eye from the brightness, and you need to see the flux burning off and the metal begin to run on the surface.. You should unfocus and peer out of the corner of your eyes to when looking into the fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lumpkins Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 thanks for all the help, I tried to forge a piece of 3/8 square today, and it looked slippery and I tapped it together, and then put it back in and worked it. I'm not sure if it took. I'm thinking that my forge is not getting hot enough. I put a piece of scape in, With the intention of burning it. so I could see exactly what the sparkles look like plus the color when sparkling accrued it never did burn. Then the wife comes home and changes my plans. Honey Doo's. I'll be back our there in a little while and will keep you all posted.. thanks again for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 There will be times when, no matter what you do, the forge weld will seem impossible to achieve. When this happens, push you ego aside and ask Mr. Lincoln for his blessing. (or Mr. Miller, Mr. Hobart depending on your preference). After the blessing, put the piece back into the fire and hammer it well to hide the evidence (grin). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 thanks for all the help, I tried to forge a piece of 3/8 square today, and it looked slippery and I tapped it together, and then put it back in and worked it. I'm not sure if it took. I'm thinking that my forge is not getting hot enough. If the forge isn't hot enough, it's possible that the extra heating time is allowing scale to build up on the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKForge Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Just my experience having recently learned to forge weld. The gentleman that taught me was pretty insistent that you have to have the whole process and movement right in your head when you do it. That really stuck with me and it definitely seems to work. When starting out forge welding practice your movements of you you will pull the piece from the fire, how you will position it on your anvil and how and where you will have and grab your hammer to strike. When you pull the ring from the fire to forge weld if you think you are moving quick enough try going a little quicker. It does not take long to loose the heat necessary to forge weld between the fire, the anvil and the heat lost when the ring touches the anvil. Moderately powerful taps to forge weld, not too hard and not too soft to make first weld. Reheat to a second forge welding heat clean up the weld. He taught me how to forge weld without flux and I have been consistently able to make strong welds using his technique. The only time I use flux is if the seam is too visible for what I am doing and then the flux easily cleans that up. As an aside I believe most British smiths do not use flux either. Would like to hear from our brothers across the pond. Good luck and keep at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce wilcock Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 not often we used a flux the chain makers used silver sand ocasionaly thrown on the fire for the first few heats , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Bly Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 I watched a smith do a forge weld the other day. The first time he stuck the weld but then tried to reshape the edge and it broke the weld, the second time it took the weld nicely. He used a borax flux. He was making a nail header. First he made the loop to form the head which required a weld, then he used a piece of spring steel to make the face of the header. He showed me that he put the hot piece (the handle and looped end of the header) on the bottom, then the colder spring steel face he put on top, with borax in between, and then set it in the fire to get both pieces up to the same color then pulled it out and smacked it together. The top piece slid off center slightly, but stuck. He hammered it back to shape then set it aside to cool so he could finish file the nail header the following day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lumpkins Posted April 11, 2009 Author Share Posted April 11, 2009 Well I tested it and it failed. I'm pretty sure my problem was not enough heat. I didn't have enough base. I started working on other projects and said the heck with it.. I may try again in the morning after I make my Scrolling plyer's.. Thanks again for all the tips. And thats pretty cool about the anchor forging.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal L Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 You might want to try making your weld with a fairly fresh fire. It seems to be easier to get heat early rather than after you have been forging all day. I saw Jerry Darnell demonstate once and he said he always does his welding in the morning. You might already be doing this but about every other tip I can think of has been coverd. What type of blower are you using? If the heat is the problem you aren't getting enough air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Hi. Is that the forge that the anvil is being welded in? Is that enough coke to get that big joint up to welding temperature? Pretty impressive!:o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce wilcock Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 the fire the anchor is welded in is a deep fire and the job is well down in the fire ,to weld the anchor is rolled over and some of the fire is pulled of to lessen the heat ,and then filler bars are brought to welding heat in another fire and welded in and cut of when you start welding bars on you are adding heat and several can be welded in at one heat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBrann Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Forge welding can be a fickle thing I have rough section of my anvil that I use to texture my scarfs, makes them stick better. (I got an abused anvil that my father fixed a bit) I use a deep fire, because of my forge, I dig out the clinker form the bottom, then build a deep fire and keep the piece in the top third, heat to yellow brush and flux (ez weld anti borax for steel or borax or nothing for wrought iron) heat to wet, and tape with smallest hammer to mate, reheat and forge to shape this works most of the time, deep hot carburizing fire is important I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Hi Bruce. Thanks for posting the pictures and the description of the technique. So, that anchor is being welded directly in that special purpose forge. It must be heavy enough to present sufficient inertia. And, the fire looks very deep and cylindrical. Maybe half a foot deep? Really looks great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce wilcock Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 yes the anchor is welded up in the fire it is easier ,the job is then blown up to welding heat and got on a anvil to finish of they wegh 5 cwt when finished so we dont want to lift them about unless we have to ,i think some would find there welding went better if they had a try using a heavier section say 1ins to start with holding heat longer allows more time to fiddle around and set your scaphs to line up ,and leave the 1/4 ins rod untill you get a little sharper around the anvil, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nett Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Bruce, the second photo you posted shows what appear to be two chain links in the background. Those two links of enormous proportion are way to big for a 500 pound anchor! What's the story? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce wilcock Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 big links i cut them out of a mooring used in the oil industry there were originaly 10 links 500 kg per link ,they have been made into garden ornaments ,i am of to sea on by sons boat for a week or so,if i get time i will take a photo and post it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lumpkins Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 (edited) I thought I would share some more info on my attempts at forge welding.. I had to quit after this attempt because I toasted my right eye ball. and gotta keep the eye's in tact.. I talked with Glenn about my problem and he suggested that I get some Shade 3 safety glasses.. I got them in the mail last week and tried again to forge weld.. this time instead of trying to forge weld a ring I tried to just do a faggot weld with 3/8s square and followed the instruction's outta my Backyard blacksmith book.. Well I tried four or five times to do the faggot weld.. and it just wouldn't work.. finally I told the wife, { She was supervising} that I was going to just burn the metal.. So I started cranking and then I seen that special Spark, that Glenn and Dale Russel and other's in the chat room had talked about, then I seen another one.. so I pulled the piece out and tapped it, and then let it cool..and tested it .. It was stuck, then put it back in the fire got it back up to high yellow and basically knocked the weld loose. Yep.. I know what you all are thinking while your sitting there grinning and reading about my mistake.. I talked with Glenn last nite and he let me know About it..As you will notice. on the Bottom of this post it Say's in Training.. lol.. I'll get there.. and I guess the main reason for writing this is. I want to Thank All of you all for helping me get to where I'm at.. I was telling a guy the other day that is interested in Blacksmithing.. Man you need to Join IFI ,, Them boy's on there want you to learn and they'll help you get there. Edited May 12, 2009 by WagonMaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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