VaughnT, Thanks for all your effort, I have a "much" better brain picture now. I decided to go with the door knocker first as it got the most mention. I don't have a product yet, still working out some execution issues. I am using the shoe as the base and the twisted loop as the knocker. I got it about half finished this afternoon. I may have some time this weekend to work on it more, but I need to separate the calves and the bull from the pregnant cows this weekend, so I'm not sure. In any event I will post pic's when I have the thing ready. I like the table idea, I'll ponder that one, !@#$%^ Thanks Adam, thanks Caladin.