Mikey98118

Harry, My answer was expert, but also flippant; so I apologize for that. Adding charcoal won't just create a reducing atmosphere in the forge; it will create a carbonizing atmosphere, which is no big deal, unless you've gone to the expense and trouble to paint a high-emissive coating in it, in which case that nice rich carbon source will do a wonderful job if covering it up. I learned this lesson the hard way by using a propane additive that was meant to be used in an oxy-fuel flame; not air-fuel. Thereafter, I had lousy performance for the several heats it took to completely burn that coating away (ITC-100 is too delicate to be wiped clean). Also, all you have to do in order to know your flame isn't oxidizing is look for any trace whatsoever of secondary flame. So long as you can see the nearest trace, than your flame is still reducing or neutral; not oxidizing.

Probably; but remember you'll be working right next to a forge, so it probably won't be all that cold.

Frosty has it right

Frosty asked "Is Rex still machining his burners from billet?" I haven't communicated with him in nearly fourteen years, and have no interest in his problems. You know those little curled arrow symbols at the back end of airplane wings in drawings of what happens to air flow over one of them? Imagine for a minute that if you can get that much drag from what, for all practical purposes is a knife edge, with the air running past it in parallel on the bottom side, and at a very close angle on the top side, how much more drag you get with air running past an edge at close to right angles. How much drag is in direct proportion to how fast the air flow is, but naturally aspirated burners only use tiny forces to induce air flow, so a little bit of drag goes a loooooong way in interfering with burner operation. Round edges produce more drag than straight edges, and a row of holes has a whole lot of round edges. So, you would naturally assume that reducing those round edges down from many to just two in a slot shaped opening would get rid of all that drag, yes? NO; it gets rid of a lot of drag, but one of those round edges is right at the mixing tube entrance and just forward of the gas jet; the amount of drag a round edge creates there is a REAL BIG DEAL! Even at the back of the air opening you can see a definite performance difference between straight edge and curved. So, I cut out rectangular air openings, but didn't get as big of a performance leap as expected...until I went the extra mile and beveled the forward and rear faces of those rectangles to knife edges. it was like driving down the road, and finally remembering to release the safety brake; big difference. Orange and red streaks are not uncommon in high speed flames coming out of a stainless steel nozzle. I had occasionally noticed them in one of my burners, but paid them no mind, until a couple of glass artists posted a question about it on one of the casting groups; I invited them to send me their burners (with return postage prepaid). The burners were correctly built and worked beautifully, but their flames made a lot of red and orange streaks. The flame nozzles were also highly reflective. They had used #304 stainless. On a hunch, I replaced the nozzles with #316, and presto; no more streaks. I will have to visit the Hybridburners.com site and look at the flames; that's what I get for throwing in an out of date memory...suppose we need to refresh them every decade or so It is fine that you're interested in burner mechanics, but just remember that your burner has probably been built by more blacksmiths than all of mine. It takes about eight hours and a lot more money to build a high speed tube burner, or over $200 to buy one; that can be discouraging for people just starting out. I'd much rather they built an easy to construct burner and come play in the pool. I get to lure more people down to the deep end that way

Actually, a bean can forge would use a 1/4" burner. A 3/8" burner would only work even in a coffee can forge by turning it down most of the way. There is something to be said for using some kinds of jewelry torches in miniature forges, but you must be careful to keep them from overheating. Forging Carver, If you want to get hold of a two gallon size helium cylinder or non-refillable refrigerant cylinder and build a proper knife forge, I will post instructions on this forum for building my latest (generation six) high speed tube burner.

I suppose people can find some benefit in almost anything, but if you should ask whether or not there is any practical benefit the answer would be no.

Frosty, BTW, It is no surprise that you have difficulty with the idea of complete single primary wave combustion; everybody does to begin with; that included me. Back in 2002 Ron Riel requested that I teach Rex Price all about my burners, because Rex wanted to make burners for sale, and Ron had wanted someone to offer g-o-o-d gas burners for sale for some time; this is how the three of us came together and Hybrid burners were born. After about two months of emailing back and forth, Price sent me his version of my burner for evaluation; it was hilarious...and awesome. The hilarious part was that he built it two feet long! The awesome part was that by exchanging my rows of holes for slot shaped air openings he had completely changed the nature of the flame it put out; there was no secondary flame present at all! Anyone who has run oxy-fuel torches will immediately understand how mind blowing that is to see in an air-fuel flame. I cut down the various parts of the burner to the minimum length it could work at, and sent it back to him. In following months I sent him models for all but his smallest burner, and let him build finished versions of them. We discussed the technical details of my 3/8" "pocket rocket," which he shortened to "Rocket" burner, but I never sent him that model, as we had a falling out about then. Anyone can see total primary flame combustion, by going to the Hybridburners.com web site. What you don't get there is the feeling of magic that only comes from seeing that flame exit a burner that you built with your own hands. I went Price one better, after doing research on why an air slot performed better than a row of holes, by making rectangular openings, which were beveled for and aft for laminar flow; this final improvement sped up mixture flow so much that the burners no longer needed a built in funnel shape, allowing me to cut air openings into a single tube structure; it also allowed tapered flares to be replaced with the more effective tube and spacer ring found on my burners. Most importantly, it enables the burner to put out a neutral single primary combustion wave. Hybrid burners put out lightly oxidizing flames, which is why they are dark blue, instead of light or medium blue. Price is not one of my favorite people; I took a lot of abuse over the first few years from morons who assumed that I stole his burner design, and then made a few "insignificant" changes to it. But no one can take this away from him: Rex Price made the first all primary combustion flame come out of a fuel-air burner; one look at that flame completely changed my thinking about burners, and the rest is history.

Frosty, I do make up some terms to describe equipment built, and you have every right to be suspicious of them, and ask for their justifications; "Cage" is the term I used for the outer structure which holds my Multi-hole glass furnace in chapter 10, in order to distinguish it from "A" frames (the most common way to suspend a tilting furnace), and square frames used to make the forge cart and its 6" thick insulated table top. Making up terms for things that aren't easily described correctly with usual terms is an inventor's privilege; one that should never be used without necessity, and which is quite often ignored or even overturned by the public. My fifth generation high speed tube burners are now called Mikey burners; a completely unintended consequence of my own actions, and a good joke on me However wave fronts is a term invented by combustion engineers; perhaps to reflect the nature of flames as semi-controlled explosions. Also an explosion's wave front within a gas filled tube (of an extended length; usually nine feet) is the phenomena which is electronically timed, to determine a given fuel's flame speed. Flame speed is one of the factors used to determine adiabatic flame temperature; the maximum (and utterly theoretical), flame temperature of a given fuel. According to combustion engineers a flame burns from its outside envelope (the boundary between mixed gas and oxidizer with ambient air) inward from all directions, but because a gas flame proceeds out of an orifice at speed it also has a very strong tendency to burn from its front backwards; thus, I suspect began the term "wave front." Wave front is also a more useful descriptive term for my purposes than envelope, because all my burner designs are deliberately made to speed up mixture feed, and then to ignite it well inside the flame nozzle in order to modify the natural tendency of a gas flame to burn from front to back with a constant source of ignition from back to front; this is how a burner can achieve complete combustion of propane (and all other LP fuel gases) in a single primary "envelope." One of the things that's so handy about this group are the constant reminders that being "right" is only as valuable as the ability to communicate that "right" answer to others; when there is such a thing as one right answer...and when you challenge mine, you sharpen me. Thank you.

Flame envelopes, cones, and wave fronts are different descriptions of coherent flame configurations. I got into the habit of using the term wave front, because I was reading a lot of material written by combustion engineers who were concerned with "designing" better flame configuration, for better combustion in industrial equipment. Torch experts usually speak of flame envelopes (inner and outer). I suppose flame cones would be a description more likely to be found in gas stove and hot water heater maintenance manuals. Regardless, it's all just different lingo for flame patterns. I simply say secondary combustion for what you call an outer flame envelope because my burners are designed to dispense with secondary combustion altogether at best and leave only a wisp of secondary combustion at worst; nothing that could meaningfully be described as a flame envelope, what you call the intermediate cone is my primary wave front, while a white inner flame cone doesn't exist on any decent forge burner. Instead, a clear cone shaped area should only denote the back side of a primary combustion wave (flame "envelope"). You're simply asking the wrong question about flame "types" for different smithing tasks. Unlike torch work, the last thing you want is to aim the flame directly at a work-piece being heated in a forge, where the flame should be used to heat the forge interior, which then heats the part indirectly. Always remember, that a flame is an ongoing chemical process creating heat as a byproduct. Inside that chemical process exists free super-heated molecules of oxygen, which cause scale to rapidly form on heating steel. Burners that produce secondary flames shoot super-heated oxygen molecules quite a long way. You will commonly see burners aimed at forge floors, but only to avoid direct flame impingement of insulated walls, where it would do much more damage than causing scale to form on part surfaces. However, there are ways around this problem. The short hard multiple flames created by a ribbon burner burn further away from the work than longer single flames from other burner types. And if you are willing to install refractory rings over insulated walls to protect them from direct flame impingement, your burner(s) can then be located on the forge bottom, facing upward; this gives a flame three times the travel distance before encountering parts then down facing burners. The correct question is what forge design does one want for blade smithing. Think of the burner as just one more part interacting with the rest of your forge, and you'll do much better. So, what size forge is best for the blade smithing you plan to do? will you make pocket folders or Bowie knives, swords, and axes? After you answer that we can deal reasonably with the question of what kind of burner design you need.

Burners can be run without flame nozzles (AKA flares) inside a forge; possibly because of back pressure; I don't pretend to have thought much about this phenomenon. This doesn't mean you are getting a stabil flame; just that your flame is being helped not to blow out by the forge. One of your photos shows the flame trying to do just that. The increase in internal diameter of your screw on "flare" simply isn't sufficient. A tapered flare uses pipe (stainless steel for better wear characteristics), the next size up from a burner's mixing tube, which is an internal diameter about 1/8" larger than the tube it mounts on; to this is added another 1/8" of increased diameter by hot tapering. My nozzle design uses a spacer ring between the mixing tube and an outer tube; together they constitute a flame nozzle with a different shape, but the same approximate 1/4" increase in internal diameter between mixing tube and nozzle interiors. The point of these "flairs" is to provide a drop in air/fuel mixture pressure just behind the flame, which allows the pressure of ambient air to push against the expanding flame, helping it to stay "glued" to the burner, instead of blowing off its end. This allows a burner to be turned up much higher than it can be otherwise. All you have to do in order to test this point is to saw off that coupling even with the end of the mixing tube, and slide another pipe over it so that it overhangs the end of the cut down coupling by about 1-1/4" light up the burner and slide the pipe back and forth on the coupling to vary the amount of overhang, and watch to see how it effects the flame. When you're satisfied with the results, measure the overhang, and that length to the width of the cut down coupling, and cut the outer pipe to that length. Mount your new flare with a single screw, because mild steel won't last long; but it will get you by until you can purchase that size tube or pipe in stainless steel.

Also, that burner does not look like a stabile design; it has no flame nozzle, and no funnel shape at its rear end.

Just google Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns PDF

That's one-half of a good idea. You need to build a sheet metal hood with a powered exhaust to put through that window, and the exhaust needs to extend out beyond the wall a couple of feet, turning upward at its end. The CO alarms are good, but you need to cover the forge area with cement board for additional fire protection, as though it were a wood stove; hang a couple of fire extinguishers on the wall too. When finished, you should call the fire department and volunteer to have them inspect your set up and advise you on any recommended improvements. This establishes a nice paper trail to show a judge, in case your ex tries to use your hobby against you.

Kriptonite is wicked stuff, whatever form it comes in

How about Glen? How about Glen?

So, starting again from scratch: Neutral gas flames can either be all primary combustion in a single wave front, or more commonly show both primary and secondary wave fronts; also called flame envelopes; The primary wave front should be light to medium blue (depending on which liquid petroleum fuel gas is combusted), WITH NO SLIGHTEST TINGE OF GREEN in it. Even a hint of green means that you have a reducing flame; the more green the more reducing (fuel rich) the flame is. As a blue flame darkens in color it becomes more and more oxidizing; this is described as a "lean" or oxygen rich flame. The color can deepen all the way into purple, and then to reddish-purple as the flame becomes leaner and leaner. Most flames will blow out before they hit reddish-purple; I have only ever built one burner that could make a flame that lean.

Also, I would definitely want "Gasser" included in a glossary. One of the things I've missed in recent decades is the profusion of slang terms that used to make the trades more colorful. When I first went to work at Odd Shipyards (Todd Shipyards Seattle) in 1972 you got harassed if you asked for a tape measure; they liked to call it a "yo-yo"; that was back when they had strong enough springs to do that trick

Frosty, Discussion leads to general consent (hopefully), then agreed upon terms can be llisted, generally doing more to ease newbie understanding than confuse it. From your comments, I would expect lots of contributions from you, unless you disagree with the very idea of a glossary. If this were twenty years ago, I wouldn't bother, but all you need to do is see all the "definitions" being made up by manufacturers who write in terms their competition won't use to realize that, when it comes to "gassers" we are rapidly devolving into sales speak; not engineering terms. That doesn't hurt me or you, but what about all those novices? BTW, Olsen's book was my inspiration. How could such a completely different text have inspired me? His book is a classic exactly because it contains zero bullshit; just the opposite of most collage texts; I need to find what's become of my old copy...

So, without knowing anything more about ribbon burners than what I've read...an obvious advantage they have is exit flames of variable force. And why is this special? Because of a thing called buoyancy. Hot air (and combustion gases) rise. Some of us have already mentioned "hang time" for combustion gases; others have pointed out how tricky exhaust size can be. But, if you turn a ribbon burner upside down, the force of its flames can be varied against both factors and perfectly tuned to them. Obviously, any burner will increase in flame force as flame speed/size increases, but I suspect that force increase in NA burners is far less than flame size increase. From what I've read so far, only a fan-blown ribbon burner could be deliberately tuned to increase the force of a flame to balance against buoyancy and/or exhaust size without increasing flame size so much that you end up with a flamethrower instead of a forge...is this right or not?

Frosty, I was a pickup kind of guy for forty-six years; now I'm a Geo kind of guy. Seattle has smaller parking places all the time, and I can rent a pickup or have materials delivered for the occasional construction project. Like my buddy Dan said after his heart attack, "Superman doesn't live here anymore." I'd already had mine, and knew exactly what he meant. We both changed our life styles in order to miss such events thereafter; very liberating it is too; I now have time to make Formula One burners, but I think of the "T" burner as more like a Geo, and would be perfectly happy to drive one. I'm more interested in Formula One heating equipment...at present

"Complexstipated"? That deserves to be a real word. However, you know how much I love complexstpiations, so I'll try at least confusing him with some options; after all, you already gave him fair warning, Jerry. Some commercial forges are better than others; usually becuase of the burners they come with. And although there is no ultimately perfect shape, oval forges are probably the best shape among the available choices. IMO the best commercial forge is a Chili Forge; you can Google their web site: this product also features the best NA burner on the Market; a fifth generation jet-ejector tube burner (commonly called a Mikey burner by home casting enthusiasts; you can Google those too). So, just what are oval forges? Well, they are actually rectangular forge interiors trapped in an oval body (shell). So, why not build them in a box shaped shell? Some people do just that; the problem with such a shell is that it needs to sit directly on a support structure; not just any kind of table though it has to be a refractory surface with plenty of insulation because of heat gain, or else a steel sheet thick enough not to warp from heat gain. By that point you would be better off with a brick pile forge, since it wouldn't be any more trouble to build and is the only kind of forge that can vary its size and shape. You can find more information on brick pile forges in another thread on this forum. The point of oval exteriors is the same as that of tunnel forges (tube shaped structures); both kinds have round bottoms which invite ambient air to circulate beneath them, shedding heat gain, so that fairly short legs can separate them far enough above a supporting surface not to burn it up or warp it. You could sit the forge on a wooden or thin sheet metal work table with nothing more than a piece of cement board to protect it. But, inside the forge is a lot more available work area than you will find in a tunnel forge. Of course, there are times when you don't want to heat all that space, so internal barriers can be made with firebrick or high alumina kiln shelving backed by rigidized ceramic wool, with which to shrink that space; the beauty of such devices is that they are "add ons." You can make them at your leisure. The next consideration is forge size; it isn't just a matter of initial cost; the bigger the forge the more it will hold, but the bigger the forge the more it costs to heat. Most people automatically assume that "bigger is better"; an idea that has been carefully planted in our minds by advertisements all our lives, because the truth is that bigger costs more; a delicious idea from any huckster's viewpoint. Unless you have a specific use requiring a big forge, smaller is nearly always better; not least because, after you make that perfect forge you will start dreaming about while using the forge you bought or built, that first small forge will still get used quite often, but people don't want elephants as pets...

You need to fix your burner and point at more of an angle, to increase swirl in the combustion gases; this is done to increase the amount of time those heated gases remain within the forge. Next, you need to use high temperature mortar to smooth out the forge interior. Finally, you need to place a round high alumina kiln shelf in front of, but an inch or so away from the front opening with a fairly small center slot for feeding material through it. I would also recommend using a high emissivity coating to paint all interior surfaces, and the side of the kiln shelf that faces toward the forge. These changes should take your forge to yellow-white heat. The Larry Zoeller Forge website has some free tips on setting up a coffee-can forge that are pretty good, but don't forget the kiln shelf baffle plate; they are inexpensive in that size at pottery supply stores.

Joe, Frosty is right about the hair dryer, especially because a hair dryer is set up to blow air with FORCE, yet it is small. So far as I can see, the only tricky part about building a ribbon burner is choosing a fan with force. If there was ever a size and shape of existing forge that could get maximum benefit from a top mounted ribbon burner its yours.

Kozzy, Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns is available through Amazon.com, where you can take an electronic peek inside of it. Pirated PDF downloads are available "free" on the Net, but watch your six on those sites; some sites are okay and others are definitely not. I don't feel disloyal to the publisher in mentioning this, since book sales have nearly doubled since it was pirated

Just when we all thought nobody was a bigger monomaniac than Dr. Frankenburner and his totally exhausting book on burners and heating equipment we find: http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Temperature-Control-Blacksmith-Forge/dp/1449560105/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1450036500&sr=1-5&keywords=gas+forge Where will it all end? Is nobody safe from these people?!?! Weren't hi/low gas switches complicated enough? Talk about "no rest for the wicked"!!!