Mikey98118

Ironhawk, I'm pretty Leary of inviting perfect strangers to visit at my home, but am perfectly willing to meet for coffee and get acquainted; also willing to provide on-site advice, and parts from the endless leftovers my burner experiments generate. My friends all belong to a local casting group that meets once a month; there is a meeting coming up soon; you could hardly make a better move than getting to know these guys. One of those friends, Dan, also built the five-gallon propane cylinder forge featured in my book, which he might be talked into bringing to the next meeting, so that you can see one operating.

My advice is to go to work on learning welding from your friend, while he's willing to teach you.

The difference used to be that hard firebricks were made of high heat resistant cast refractory formulas, and soft firebrick (AKA insulating firebrick) was made by including a foaming agent in the a castable refractory formula. As with so many other things, today there are many different choices of both kinds on the market. It is not only refractory mixes that come in 3000, 2800, 2600, 2300, and 2000 F ratings with equally varying degrees of insulating ability; bricks are made in those same ratings. Furthermore, today hard firebrick comes in many specialty varieties.

And to report evenhandedly, the overall effect of the flame differences between these two burners seems to be very good for clenceo's forge; this becomes obvious when looking at the exhausted gas, in the third photo (no slightest trace of blue exhaust flames); although this may well change after he controls the size of the forward opening with a brick stack close to the front of the forge, or a cut down internal baffle to shrink the opening's size; that will cause an increase in back pressure, which will, in turn, change burner performance.

I also noticed that, while the back flame is well aimed, the forward flame (the best one) is tilted a little off-center; that could make the difference between them. It's good that you like to tinker and are interested by tuning. If there was one single major failure I spotted in my readers, time and again it was an unwillingness to put forth a little extra effort and learn how to tune their own burners! But tuning isn't just about performance; learning to tune a burner is necessary for anyone who wishes to learn anything about designing and/or operating burners. I got that backwards; it's the back flame that looks to be slithtly canted. No; it IS the forward flame that is tilted slightly off-center. Obviously, a cup of coffee is way overdue

There are different ways to improve your view, while protecting your eyes from glare. number #3 half lenses with clear tops is a common method for blacksmiths. Hot glass artists (who are exposed to a lot more furnace glare, and also need to accurately judge heat by color) Mostly depend on neodymium glasses, which aren't cheap, but are quite effective.

What a perfect question, Frozenforge. Mixture feed speed,and amount of drop in mixture pressure in the flame nozzle or burner block area, are both factors which contribute to high flame speeds...or fail to do so. One very clear indicator for whether or not you've built a high speed burner is how far incoming fuel gas pressure can be turned up. I rated the burners in my first book at a maximum of thirty PSI, but I tested every one of them for stable flame production at sixty PSI, and deliberately under rated the burners to maintain a high margin of safety for readers (whom I knew would tend not to build the burners EXACTLY as instructed). Riel burners are not high speed burners, unless the MIG tip modification is added. The only way I can believe clenceo achieved that perfect forward flame is by nestling his burner in a burner block, instead of employing a stainless steel tapered nozzle. If he replaced the side hole with an .030" MIG contact tip he could achieve it on the back flame too.

They sell a good regulator at a reasonable price; Fisher brand, if I remember correctly.

CAE, Don't use hard firebrick for the forge floor, 3/4" or even 1" thick high alumina kiln shelving is utterly superior to fire brick in strength, resistance to super heated fluxes, and blocking heat transfer. The average fire brick is roughly equivalent fire clay in heat transfer rates; high alumina is up to seven times more resistant to heat transfer. The only refractory substance more resistant to heat transfer is zirconium oxide. A kiln shelf can be cut long enough to extend through both ends of a steel forge shell, and because it is designed to carry heavy loads of pottery at very high heat (rated to support your load at 3000 F). Becuase it takes so little space, there is plenty of room between it and the shell to add ceramic blanket. which is quite springy before it "takes a set" after a few heat cycles. By cutting a 1/8" oversize rectangular slot for the shelf, you can stuff a lot of ceramic blanket under it, making a very good additional support for the forge floor, along its entire length; what more could you want for about $23 at your local pottery supply? No; rigidizer is not anything like Plistex. Rigidizer is colloidal silica (AKA fumed silica). It penetrates through the ceramic blanket to strengthen it. Plistex is a hard finish coating, which is one way to seal the ceramic blanket and provide a smooth finish layer on which to paint a high-missive coating (AKA (IR reflector"). while Plistex is claimed to be an" effective IR reflector," any high-alumina castable refractory can match it.

Also, all castable hot-face liners are NOT the same. Kast-0-lite 3000 is an extra tough semi-insulating refractory (almost as insulating as 2600 degree refractory). No ordinary hard refractory is anywhere near as protective for secondary insulation layers as Kast-0-lite 3000; it is also very convenient to work with, being both tougher and softer before heat curing than other high heat castable refractories, which is very convenient when you're trying to level the edges of poured layers for flame tight seams. Charles, You must have belonged to ABANA's news group Theforge, way back when. I didn't expect to have my alter ego outed that fast...outside of a casting group

G.G. My advice to you is to build two forges; a tunnel forge, and a brick pile forge. The tunnel forge should probably be made from a two-gallon Freon cylinder, although most people use a five gallon propane cylinder to overbuild an all-to-large version, instead; unless you are building parts professionally, this is too much tool for the job. Most scroll-work done by professionals is heated twice (in the five-0gallon forge). The first heat allows flattening and curling of the scroll end. The second heat allows this form to be fit into a scroll pan, and a four to six inch inner scroll to be formed; at this point the outer scroll arch can be cold bent around another form, or for very thick bar stock, the scroll is reheated in a brick pile forge and hot bent around a secondary scroll pan. And yes, this is the "voice of experience" speaking with you.

Frosty, Dr. Frankenburner, designer of Formula One heating equipment totally agrees with your viewpoint; there ain't no sucha thing as the PERFECT burner or the PERFECT forge, casting furnace, pottery kiln, etc. Ive been at this for sixteen years and still think up improvements for equipment I just finished constructing However, there is also the opposite extreme; namely mistaking just any ol thing we slap together for "good enough." My advice to the average Joe or Jane is "learn all you can first, and avoid all extremes.

Well, as to fuels; one big difference is how clean burning do you want your forge? How clean do the want the air you're breathing to be? Ordinarily, I'd go along with the general advise on building your blacksmith skills before tackling advanced work, like blade smithing. But, the fact is that there are many excellent books on the subject, and online groups to consult; also, blade smithing calls for so many other skills than forging, that like ornamental iron, auto body work, and various other specialties, you could do as well by just jumping in and getting your feet wet; you will have a few more failures, but will have a much shorter learing curves overall.

Actually the front flame is a perfect example of a high speed neutral burning flame, while the back flame is a slightly reducing flame. However, barbecue these flames come so close to to the work area, the neutral flame is likely to cause scaling, while the reducing flame won't. That would be "because" not." barbecue."

Excellent summation, Charlotte: To not using Harbor Freight regulators, I would add, not to use Mr Heater regulators, and cheap no brand name regulators. the price difference between the worst and best regulators is between $10 and $20, depending on size; talk about false economy! Also, I recommend regulators designed for LPG over standard torch regulators, because LPG regulators are more resistant to "freezing up" under wet winter conditions.

CAE, It seems to me that you have both good friends and good luck. Yes, you need both rigidizer and finish coatings. rigidizer is especially important for you because you won't be able to make single cut parts, and fit them against a curved wall under compression. So, if you want your insulation to last it must be completely rigidized. On the other hand, between using 2600 F insulation and rigidizer, you will toughen the secondary (inslulating) layer in your forges enough so that it should stand up well to the heat that will leak past the high emissive coating (AKA IR reflector) and thin hot-face layer (typically Kast-O-lite 3000): (A) You don't want to use thick layers; instead of a single 2" thick layer, place the insulation in two 1" thick layers. Ceramic fiber blanket will easily part into thinner layers via delamination between layers. (B) Rigidize each layer after installation, and heat cure it, before installing the next layer. (C) Form the burner openings before rigidizing each layer. For more specifics ask Frosty or one of the other members who use tapered openings or flame nozzles on/with their burners; I use step nozzles,and so can't properly advise you on this subject. But, remember to leave them just a little oversize so that they can be finish oated with a hot-face layer. (D) Rigidizer is just fumed silica (which remains suspended in water) and common everyday food coloring (to allow you to visually judge how much to use); this water born product is easiest to dispense by spritzing. But, you can always pay though the nose for it from a pottery supply if you prefer

If you're going to rigidize the ceramic fiber, forget the inconel studs. they are a complete waste of time and money, in return for nothing but creating a bunch of heat sinks, with which to siphon off internal heat. I don't think you'll be very happy with a ribbon burner operating in such a confined space.

Okay, once we avoid the extremes, "better off" starts becoming a very flexible concept. Generally (if you know what You're doing) a thicker hot-face is stronger and therefore better lasting than a thinner one, but at the cost of fuel efficiency. Thinner hot-face layers transfer more heat to the secondary layer of insulation, and if that secondary layer isn't capable of handling the higher heat transfer, it won't last long. BUT: How much heat the tot-face receives at a time is up to the operator. Let me make this very clear; how much heat that each and every layer your forge has to manage depends on how far you turn up the f-l-a-m-e in your equipment; obvious isn't it? Or, is it? How many times have I seen overlarge heating chambers putting out white heat, while someone pounds on a small part? Nobody works steel at white heat so what is the point of all this...waste. Maybe the guy isn't aware of it, but waste is what he is producing. Wasted fuel, along with wasted wear and tear on the equipment. When I started designing burners the "more is better" debate was going on; then it was in the form of naturally aspirated versus fan-blown burners: "which is hotter, which is hotter?" We hardly ever heard anyone asking which can waste more fuel, did we? As I worked to build ever hotter burners, I also worked to build them ever smaller. Way back when, hotter burners mattered hugely, because most of the designs around were marginal; they had to struggle to do the job, right? WRONG; burners then only had to struggle if they or the equipment they powered weren't built right, and tuned right. So, what all this means to you is, you want to consider how hot and how often you're going to work steel. Maybe a thin coat of zirconium rich refractory over ceramic fiber makes great sense for what you want to accomplish, and maybe a 1" thick kast-O-lite 3000 hot-face layer over a secondary layer of 2600 simi-insulting castable is the ticket for you. Or one of may options somewhere in between. What then is the biggest difference between these two extremes? Aboout ten extra minutes heating time...

/A hot-face layer 2" thick?!? You might as well use hard firebrick; it's going to end up as a heat sink!

Excellent; both views were aired, and the readers can make an informed decision. Nobody gets out of this deal alive, anyway Now, we needs to get back to chasing after the subject at hand...

Frosty, Tacoma's aroma is long gone, along with the pulp mills, and Boeing Surplus was closed many years back. the shipyards are history,, and there isn't a single scrap yard left here; I might as well be living in Southern Cal., now...

I like these Devil Forge guys; the more I see of their stuff, the more their dollar value becomes obvious. Just one one issue for me is the regulator and hose. For every quality regulator on the market there must be a hundred "also-rans." If you don''t like something about a steel part on your burner that is simple enough to change; ditto for the forge shell. But you want an American-built regulator, because this is where you live; not Yugoslavia. You want the manufacturer of your equipment to have a healthy fear of lawsuits on a part like your regulator or your fuel hose. Be smart, and stick your burners into an american fuel hose, which is hooked up to an American regulator!!!

Yeah: I looked it up, and It does sound down right formidable; trying to get it locally in tube or pipe form doesn't look easy, though...Guess I'll try through McMaster-Carr; love those people when my tail's caught in a crack...

My excuse was that my garage is unheated most of the time, and I hate seeing a rusty piece of equipment, but the truth is, they're just pretty, and " I've always wanted a sparkly of my very own." I've never used #310 SS. What's the advantage?

Maddog states: "These days I make my burner ends out of Mizzou. The 3/4" nipple sits back about 3" from the opening into the forge. I still use SS because I have it but I don't think it matters much." Now, here's a subject I'd like to hear a lot more on. Could you go into detail a little more?