Mikey98118

Your point about not blowing the heat right out of the forge is well made, and I believe that is what ribbon burners are all about. Still, it will be interesting to see your results.

Frosty, Alas, it's too late for a rousing debate between us, because of my own ambivalent feelings. I've run full circle, and just as I come up with a wonderful new burner, find this inconvenient reasonableness greatly increasing my respect for the other guy's viewpoint. It takes a lot of the joy out of my present book plans. But, on the other hand, should do a lot to improve the book that these Vortex burners have interrupted, once I can get back to it. You will remember that my very first burner change was installation of MIG tips on old Aussie style burners; it is still included in Ron's burner pages. But, straight tube flame nozzles with spacer rings wasn't. When the MIG tips are combined with larger reducer fittings they jump mixture feed up enough to allow the straight nozzles to work on these old burners, producing a performance leap in a simple to construct burner. But, due to circumstances beyond my control, I never got to point that out at the time. And, in any case, older burner designs have their own advantages. Blunt tip stainless steel Luer-lock dispensing needles come in both plastic hubs (unsafe) and metal hubs (recommended); they can be found in many orifice sizes from McMaster-Carr, eBay, and many other sources. These needles come in perfect orifice sizes for maximum flame performance on any burner. You cannot order by gauge size, because inside diameters of the same gauge can vary several thousandths of an inch depending on wall thickness, so you must look for I.D. listings. Dispensing tips are also available through eBay, and Amazon.com. Luer-lock dispensing needles mount on nickel plated brass or stainless steel male adapters (plugs) that are combined with various connector fittings in both threaded and barbed ends. By varying length and orifice sizes on the needles I have been able to eliminate the need for 3" and 4" long gas tubes on burners up to 3/8" pipe equivalent size (included in a publisher's update of the original book), and expect to continue this happy practice with all the burner sizes, as time permits more experiments.

Hi, Frosty. I'd been overheated with writing books on so many subjects, and just spent less and less time writing on groups. But recently a hacker destroyed three of my books (no back up copies; my bad), and I decided to set a saner pace. Four years back I started to research and write a general work on fan-blown systems. Two years ago I tried using an impeller style axial computer fan at the funnel entrance to power a linear NA burner (wanted to review linear burners anyway, as my early success with jet-ejectors pulled me away from them sooner than I liked). The result was so powerful that I've concentrated on Vortex burners every since. After the initial Eureka moment, I went back and started reading up on vortices, since I could find no other phenomena to explain the mind blowiing performance increase. Wow, just read a little bit on the laws of vortical flow, and you'll soon wonder how we could have missed the opportunities it presents all these years; its like the magic answer to every builder's problems and limitations in burner construction. For instance pushing air through a funnel will create spin, which is so necessary for proper air/gas mixing, but it also increases mixture pressure in the mixing tube a little further on. This is added to the increased pressure that the fuel gas stream causes while inducing air into the tube. The total pressure increase has a very bad effect in the flame nozzle, severely limiting nozzle vacuum, and therefore limiting flame performance. But take a fraction of that fan power and use it to directly increase vortical flow, instead of as a by-product of pushing air, and incoming air feed rate increases, along with spin rate, WHILE PRESSURE IN THE MIXING TUBE DROPS. Thus, at the same time mixture feed is being greatly increased, flame nozzle pressure is greatly decreased, allowing a given nozzle diameter to hold a much larger and faster flame in place. Since mixing is so much more thorough the flames are less turbulent, and therefore the jet engine roar of flame noise also drops. A win, win, win situation. Would you like a general discussion on this subject?

Latticino's advice was very good; he came closest to pointing you in the exact right direction, not that the others didn't do well too. The bottom line is that you want to head for the richest sources for NG burner information. If I were in your shoes, Ward Burner Systems web site is where I'd start; their free articles will give you the best information on setting up an NG system that will pass muster with your local Fire Marshal. Second best source for information is Giberson's book on home built glass blowing equipment. These were my two favorite information sources back in 1999, when I was doing research to decide what way I wanted to jump with my own heating equipment decisions. I basically chose NA burners only after working in a metal arts shop just to get aqainted with their equipment, and ended up deciding that I definitely wanted to control the dragon's breath problem better than a fan-blown NG burner system would allow. Take a little more time doing the background research and then get back to us with your impressions, yes? The only kind of naturally aspirated burner that possibly could work with the very low pressure natural gas normally piped to homes might be a Vortex burner, but since I haven't had time to research that possibility yet, I can't recommend trying to build one for the purpose. Also, since more flame at less velocity will produce the least amount of dragon's breath in a fan-blown system, I would be inclined to build a ceramic based ribbon burner to heat the forge and use something like a Fisher burner to supply it with a gas/air mixture; just a thought. That same Michael Porter

Frosty, Fisher burners are the modern equivalent of old cast iron "wasp waist" burners; to me they are way out of date tech. But, you and I seem to be coming from opposite ends of the spectrum for what we want out of a burner flame. You appear to want a soft quiet slightly reducing flame well suited to forge welding. I want a fast hard flame with total primary combustion and zero CO output. I care much more about clean burning forges than scale formation. This is because, after 45 years of welding I am the canary in the mine shaft :-) It's kind of a case of apples and oranges. I'm actually glad for the difference. If we perfectly agreed, what could we possibly teach one another? I'm learning a lot from you; don't know if you're learning much from me, but I'm happy with the deal. Should we discuss gas jets again? I have a new trick...

Ceramic fiber wears out because of linear shrinkage from heat cycles, and from a serious tendency for the layers to delaminate from each other. But the worst wear factor is the tendency of the fibers to form crystabolite particles at 1600 F. All these problems are seriously reduced by using rigidizer, which works by coating the fibers all over; this locks the fibers in position where the cross each other. the major content in Rigidizer is water, which steams away during heat curing, leaving a pretty thin layer of silica. So, loss of insulating qualities is minor while strengthening is major. A rigidized layer also makes good support for a thin refractory layer (1/4" is good). In turn, the nice smooth hard refractory layer becomes a perfect support for an infrared "reflective" layer, such as ITC 100, and also allows that layer to be thinner ($$$$ saved).

Many people run induction burners in forges and casting furnaces without a flame nozzle; I've done so myself just to prove it works. So why go to all the work of building, or the expense of buying, a flame nozzle? Well, why buy a Ferrari when an old farm truck is cheaper? The answer in both cases is performance. Although a flame nozzle isn't necessary to get an induction burner to work in some heating equipment, the burner will work much better with than without one. BTW, this is also true of flan-blown burners, as anyone operating a glass-blowing furnace (day tank, glory hole, etc) could tell you. Look up more information on the kind of flame nozzles commonly used for fan-blown burners at Ward burner systems, and many other sites used by people running large burner systems for hot glass work and for large pottery kilns. But, when your hair curls at the prices quoted, just remember that you can still build and install your own stainless steel flame nozzle for a LOT less money :-)

Thomas, Generally speaking, you are correct. But, but the longer "hang time" from smaller hotter flames must also be taken into account, making you even more correct than you thought :-) But, the high production rates from fan-blown forges cannot be denied... I had to put aside my own preferences-turned-prejudices, and start investigating powered burner systems to come up with a truly updated burner design; it's called a Vortex burner, and uses both induction and fan power. Vortex burners are power boosted NA burners that can operate in either mode, because they definitely are not fan BLOWN burners. Their very weak impeller fans, can run on highly portable 12V batteries for hours at a time because their power is used to boost the action of a vortex in a constricted area (funnel shape), rather than to blow more air into a burner. What they do blow is every previous NA burner design (including all of mine) "off the road." But are they the ultimate perfect burner? NO; there just ain't no such animal!!! Even the most wonderful of burners is just another burner, and the very virtues that make it outstanding for some jobs will reduce its utility for others. After I finish playing with this design, it's back to the old grind investigating fan-blown burners, which still due some tasks too well to be ignored (darn it). Mikey

After inventing, perfecting, and writing about gas heating equipment for the last sixteen years. I can tell you all from personal experience that the ongoing debate on powered versus naturally aspirated burners is just wrong headed. The best any of us can do is observe and learn about the equipment he/she actually uses. I've yet to see anyone from one camp deliberately investigate the equipment beloved by the other. Here, I'm suggesting an open minded evaluation that might take years; not a few months of dissatisfaction with a particular piece of equipment that was probably a poorly designed and/or constructed product in the first place; for who abandons a forge or burner because of over satisfaction with it? unless burner design, rather than forging, is your main passion how will you find time for such an effort? Without walking this path, your only reasonable hope if gaining sufficient knowledge into equipment you don't have (let alone use) is to ask about it from those who do; so how much even handedness is it reasonable to expect from those you insult? BTW, burners and heating equipment just happens to be my passion, yet I've only begun to investigate powered burners. Frosty happens to be right about "no free lunch" with fan-blown burners; they tend to put out more heat overall during a given time span, but that either comes at the cost of more fuel expended or of lower maximum temperature in the equipment; in either case "hang time" for any given combustion product is reduced. So if you're looking for shorter heating cycles go fan-blown; If you're looking for fuel efficiency, forget it. One other thing that only fan-blown burners do well is power chip forges, for any naturally aspirated burner capable of providing sufficient heat to the chip holding area, will overheat the firing chamber below it; the reason for this limitation is compact high temperature flames. Fan-blown burners can produce much larger lower temperature flames. Production is critically important to people making a living, just as keeping costs low and shop areas cool is to most hobbyists. However, a successful hobbyist is likely as not to find him/her self drifting over to the professional side, so keeping an open mind is kind of important. Mikey

Hi Frosty, I like what you said about "venturi" burners. I gave up trying to point out the flaw early on, but it is quite confusing for people who start out by trying to look up venturi systems, instead of Bernoulli's Principle. Bottom line is that the constricting shape past which the air is being induced by the fuel gas has everything to do with spinning the gas and air for proper mixing, and nothing whatever to due with venturi systems. All successful NA burners spin the fuel gas and air, whether by using a funnel shape at the air opening of a linear burner, a single side opening (side-arm and modified side-arm burners) or multiple side openings (Mikey burners) Mikey

This is the first time I've seen one of these burners, but I can tell you a few good things about it. In the first place, seeing the red/orange hot flame nozzle out in open air tells me that the fuel/air mixture is exposed to a generous ignition source (very good). Your combustion is mostly in the primary flame envelope; AKA combustion wave front (also very good). The orange streaks in the secondary flame are from a reaction between super-heated gases and that particular stainless steel alloy, which is undoubtedly #304, instead of the longer lasting #316 S.S. alloy; you needn't worry about them, but you will have to replace your flame nozzles much sooner than you would with #316. Now we come to the color of your primary flame, which has a slight tinge of green in it, instead of being pure light blue. There was a time when I would have said VERY NOT GOOD, but so long as you use your forge outdoors, or are careful to provide your forge area with a powered exhaust system for it is merely problematic; in other words both good and not so good. The good part is that it will provide a perfect heat source for welding, as the slightly reducing flame will protect your work from oxidation, while in the forge. The not so good part is that, if you ignore Frosty's recommendations about providing a powered exhaust system and CO alarm in your shop, you could end up with carbon monoxide poisoning, which is an outright bad thing. Mikey

You mentioned getting a new 20 pound tank. Many states used the compulsive replacement of old five gallon propane cylinders with upgraded models featuring overflow devices as an opportunity to also quietly include internal pressure limiting devices that are capable of running a barbecue, but hopelessly under-powered for running a typical burner. If you ended up with one of these tanks, it will never provide sufficient gas to power even the smallest NA burner. Should this be your problem, buying a much larger tank locally or buying a new five gallon tank in another state are your only solutions. Mikey

There are so many questions you haven't asked, which you really need to. I would suggest that you look up Larry Zoeller Forge as the most practical starting point for free information on building small forges. Either a Frosty "T" burner or Larry's modified side-arm burner would do fine in such a forge. Build the forge properly and forget about so called MAPP gas (which is actually propylene as MAPP has not been manufactured since 2008). If you must use propylene it is much cheaper purchased in regular industrial cylinders from a welding supplies store, but if you build your burner and forge correctly propylene gas and air would be much too hot to run in it, let alone propylene and oxygen. You can also input "Mikey Burner" to learn a lot more than you know on the subject of constructing burners. The only comprehensive source of information on the subject is still my book (Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, and Kilns); do you have to buy it? Nope; it has been pirated so much that there are about 120 sites advertising free PDF downloads on any given day. Of course, there is an old saying about laying down with dogs and getting up with fleas...have fun, and watch your six. Michael Porter There are so many questions you haven't asked, which you really need to. I would suggest that you look up Larry Zoeller Forge as the most practical starting point for free information on building small forges. Either a Frosty "T" burner or Larry's modified side-arm burner would do fine in such a forge. Build the forge properly and forget about so called MAPP gas (which is actually propylene as MAPP has not been manufactured since 2008). If you must use propylene it is much cheaper purchased in regular industrial cylinders from a welding supplies store, but if you build your burner and forge correctly propylene gas and air would be much too hot to run in it, let alone propylene and oxygen. You can also input "Mikey Burner" to learn a lot more than you know on the subject of constructing burners. The only comprehensive source of information on the subject is still my book (Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, and Kilns); do you have to buy it? Nope; it has been pirated so much that there are about 120 sites advertising free PDF downloads on any given day. Of course, there is an old saying about laying down with dogs and getting up with fleas...have fun, and watch your six. Michael Porter

Frosty, You wrote "Aren't you referring to a 3/16" FPT to 1/8" compression fitting?" No, I'm referring to a particular size threaded insert for wood. The very next burner in the book (the 3/4" burner) uses a lamp fitting; I gave them more than one part to work from. Nevertheless, a 1/8" schedule #80 pipe nipple is much more efficacious. But where I really had in mind for this discussion to go was forward into new burner designs. I'm afraid it is simply buried to deep in the list to get any play. Mikey

I agree with his views about the utility of a brick pile forge. Perhaps its greatest value is in providing a good way to heat metal, so you have more time to decide on what kind of permanent shape forge to construct. Porter

To timgunn1962 The gas pressures they are talking about have to do comparisons to other gas pressures out of the same size of orifice; so 12 PSI versus 25 PSI means less than half as much gas used to produce a desired result, assuming that the same size orifice is used in someone else's forge, and if the same sized burners are being used, it is also likely that the same size gas orifices are being used. Porter

Brian, I recommended two MIG tip sizes: For .030" welding wire and .035" wire. The reason is that this burner size "sits on the bubble" the smaller tip works better at lower pressures; the larger tip at higher pressures. I sand bagged a lot of my figures and recommendations. Actually, I tested out every burner in the book up to 60 PSI, and then listed their limits as 30. You need to remember that this was a brand new burner design and my legal exposure lasts as long as the book goes on being read. So, when guys wrote back then that I must be bragging, I laughed out loud, knowing the burners would actually do far more than I'd claimed. But, I did play fair; the book also recommends using a set of torch tip files (about $2 at your local welding supply store) to ream out the smaller tip size a couple of thousandths to get perfect performance out of this burner. Most people would rather buy two tips; after all, it's not like you're going to be changing them back and forth much. Here is another tip that didn't go into the book: On any of these sizes the builder can cut the amount of air openings down to three by simply widening the air openings and have room left over to widen (and therefore strengthen) the ribs between the openings. The other result of this change is a more powerful burner, so why didn't I mention that in the book? People hadn't built thousands of these burners back then. The extra air openings made the burner run a little smoother out in the open air, and I wanted all the extra safety I could get. Porter

Brian, Listen to Frosty's advice, but if you want to see that forge enteior go from yellow up to yellow-white use ITC 100, or a homemade equivalent in it. Porter

Brian, MIG tip sizes are listed for the welding wire they are meant to handle. An .030" MIG tip actually has an .035" orifice, and an .035" tip has an .040" orifice. I recommend buying both tips because neither is a perfect orifice diameter for this burner size; the smaller tip will put out a better flame in the lower gas feed pressures, and the larger tip is needed for best performance at higher gas pressures. Somewhere in the book I mention using torch tip cleaning file sets (about $2 at your local welding supply store), to ream the smaller tip out a couple thousandths if you want perfect gas accelerator performance. Most people just buy both tips. I mean, it isn't as though you're going to be running the burner up and down its range just for something to do, is it? Porter

Brian, Listen to Frosty's advice, but if you want to see that forge enteior go from yellow up to yellow-white use ITC 100, or a homemade equivalent in it. Porter

Brian, Listen to Frosty's advice, but if you want to see that forge enteior go from yellow up to yellow-white use ITC 100, or a homemade equivalent in it. Porter

"The Book"? Is that what they're calling it now? How flattering; and how wrong. That book is ten years old. We have all discovered plenty more since then. I would call it a nice knowledge base to familiarize yourself with, but certainly not the last word; not on equipment construction, and certainly not on burners.There is a brave new burner now. Vortex burners combine all the extra power of fan-blown burners, and all the compact flame precision of naturally aspirated burners; they are also less work to build than mikey burners...more complex, but a lot less sweat equity. Than, we have the furnace, itself: Gas tube forges are simply out of date. Even while I was writing that book oval shaped gas forges were commercially available; they are even more so now (check out Chili Forge). However, these older designs, with their rectangular enteriors are also outdated. You want a true oval enterior in your oval forge to get the most out of a Vortex burner. The Author michael.a.porter@comcast.net

I never heard of a valve with a diaphram. Regulators have diaphrams, and If I were you, I'd take the "valve" down to a local liquid propane dealership, and see what advice and/or replacement parts they can provide. Mikey

I spent thirteen years in ornamental ironwork, and another forty-two thinking about it afterward. I can tell you that experience is not enough by itself. One of the things you need to do is send for, and study, ornamental iron work supply catalogs. Than too, there was a set of five ornamental ironwork books once; they were called "the gold books" by guys in the trade. If you can still find a set, they would be quite helpful in answering stock size questions. Here are two hints to start with: (1) NEVER use solid stock on the frame or pickets of a gate more than three feet wide; (2) When in doubt ALWAYS choose the larger--not the smaller--stock you are considering. If, in sheer ignorance, customers hint that you are trying to save money on frame and picket stock by using square or rectangular tube, ask them how much its equivalent in solid stock would wiegh, and how they plan on keeping such a load from destroying whatever it is suspended from. BUT, outside of matters that take experience, like the weight of gates, just remember that whatever troubles your eye will also trouble the customer's; they may not have a clue about good design, but every last one of them can see what's wrong with what you're offering, whether they can put it into words or not! Final hint; when it comes to designs, go to a stained glass supply and look at their books. Buy a couple, and use them to teach yourself what's hot and whats not, in possible ornamental iron designs. This advice is free, but it's not cheap; it cost me a working lifetime to perfect; you might get more, but you won't get better. Michael Porter michael.a.porter@comcast.net

I am currently updating the second addition of Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, and Kilns, and have run across an old question on this forum about where to find a 3/16"inverted female nut to build the gas accelerator with. Having thought I'd solved this question eight years ago, along with the need to build a temporary accelerator, and the need to do any silver brazing at all, I was surprised to find people still asking such out of date questions. Apparently, the word hasn't spread. Schedule #80 4" pipe nipples aren't easy to find, locally; but, they can be directly tapped for 1/4-28 thread, and thus hold the 14T MIG tip. You can order such a pipe nipple from Zoeller Forge for $5 and shipping, if you can't find it locally (which you probably can't). The money they save in silver braze alloy and flux will more than cover the price difference and shipping charges above what a schedule #40 pipe nipple and 3/16" inverted female nut costs at your local hardware store. You can use the brass pipe nipple and 1/4" threaded reducer fitting from a brass inflator kit from Harbor Freight (item #68269; price $2.49) for you burner's accelerator tube; it will also take 1/4-28 thread without any special fitting (I would recommend soldering the threaded joint between brass nipple and 1/4" reducer, though). Any other questions? Mike Porter