Forging channel locks?

[Leeknivek]

Hi. I'm just getting started in blacksmithing and trying to get my foot in the door. I have a small, 40# stretch of railroad track and a brake drum-inside-a-55-gallon-drum forge. (Almost, at least. I just need to hook up a blower).

I don't have much for tools - an assortment of four hammers, three cross peins and one ball pein. The largest being about 2 pounds. I do not have any tongs, however, and I was looking to make some. I have a very limited experience in metalwork, only doing odd jobs in sheet metal, welding, and a little but of cold cutting. Not very much forming or forging, but I'm a fast and dedicated learner.

Now, in any circumstance where I needed more grip and leverage than human hands could provide, I've always preferred to use channel locks, seconded by slip joint pliers - or a combination of the two. I don't like vice grips, and I don't know if there's a lot of practicality in having 100 different tongs for 100 different operations that may rarely be used. I do not say this offensively, rather I say it objectively as looking at it from an outside perspective. I like tools as much as anyone else, but it's a hassle searching for the right tool already as it is. I'd like to make it simple.

I read through a thread on here before posting this - a new member asking about galv. Steel channel locks who was told he was bound to hurt himself and that they are no good. I'm hoping the same won't happen to me.

I was thinking something along the lines of regular, typical, ordinary blacksmiths tongs. Simple and effective, yet with the added advantage of being able to adjust jaw width. So, something with a regular jaw, for now - ie: suited flat-, square- or round-stock holding. - with the tongue-and-groove portion of channel locks, allowing them to be adjusted so you have tongs for 1/4" up to 1", instead of 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", etc.....

I'm thinking a specific punch could be made to make the crescent "grooves", maybe a reverse die for the "tongues".

Just curious what sort of input the members of this thread might have. I'm not trying to make some sort of revolutionary tool and expect to change the way things have been done for thousands of years - but innovation is a friend, also, and I am not afraid to benefit from convenience.

Thank you for reading.

[Dogsoldat]

It's good practice to make a few sets of tongs.  I bet you'll find that 3-4 sets of tongs will do a good portion of your work holding.  I find I'm going for the same three tongs most of the time.   2 flat jaw tongs one set up for 1/8" give or take and another that's good for around 3/8  and a set of bolt tongs for 3/8"  that have been resized  a few times now when something a little bigger comes along.  I have seen pictures of adjustable tongs,  but can't for the life of me remember where.   And on top of that they are fairly intricate to get right.   A good basic set of tongs really doesn't take a great amount of time to make.  Another option for a multiple sized tong would be V bit tongs (  think that's the name)  both jaws are V shaped but one is male the other female.  It really only take a minute or two to adjust a set of tongs and nothing quite holds like a properly adjusted set.

[bigfootnampa]

You'll find yourself crippled with channel lock type tongs!  NOT a good idea!  You need 4 to 5 sets of tongs for most work.  By the time you need 100 pair you'll easily make what you need as you need them!

[Jim Coke]

Greetings and welcome Leek,

 

A good start would be filling in your profile..  You would be surprised how many smiths are in your area that would be more than willing to help you along with making tongs...  Most would lend you a few pairs to get you started....   Before you try to re-invent the wheel so to speak on tongs might I suggest you research wolf jaw tongs...  They are pretty universal and will do quite well on most things...   Good luck on your venture and ask for help when you need it..

 

Forge on and make beautiful things

Jim

[arftist]

I doubt you would ever need more than 12 pairs. I have 60 pair and use about 10 to 12 of them. 

No way you are making channel locks without mastering tongs first anyway. 

[DSW]

Nice thing about making tongs, is you don't have to have tongs to make them. You can simply work with a longer piece of stock and hold that. I helped a young smith last year make his 1st set of tongs and gave him a few pairs I had that  I'd made back when I was learning so he had a small selection to work with until he made his own. There are plenty of "easy" tong designs out there that don't require a lot of forge skills to make.  A simple set of twist tongs are so easy just about any new smith can make a pair or two.Then as you progress in your skills, tongs are a useful project that helps you build and improve your skills,

[Leeknivek]

It's good practice to make a few sets of tongs.  I bet you'll find that 3-4 sets of tongs will do a good portion of your work holding.  I find I'm going for the same three tongs most of the time.   2 flat jaw tongs one set up for 1/8" give or take and another that's good for around 3/8  and a set of bolt tongs for 3/8"  that have been resized  a few times now when something a little bigger comes along.  I have seen pictures of adjustable tongs,  but can't for the life of me remember where.   And on top of that they are fairly intricate to get right.   A good basic set of tongs really doesn't take a great amount of time to make.  Another option for a multiple sized tong would be V bit tongs (  think that's the name)  both jaws are V shaped but one is male the other female.  It really only take a minute or two to adjust a set of tongs and nothing quite holds like a properly adjusted set.

 

That seems a lot more reasonable, from what I've heard and pictures I've seen there were walls of tongs and I feel like I wouldn't be able to work too efficiently with that - so to cut down on it would be good. Do you have any links to v-shaped tongs?


 

You'll find yourself crippled with channel lock type tongs!  NOT a good idea!  You need 4 to 5 sets of tongs for most work.  By the time you need 100 pair you'll easily make what you need as you need them!

 

Well that's why I asked! They've always gotten me by before, thought I'd see what you fellows thought about it.

 

Greetings and welcome Leek,
 
A good start would be filling in your profile..  You would be surprised how many smiths are in your area that would be more than willing to help you along with making tongs...  Most would lend you a few pairs to get you started....   Before you try to re-invent the wheel so to speak on tongs might I suggest you research wolf jaw tongs...  They are pretty universal and will do quite well on most things...   Good luck on your venture and ask for help when you need it..
 
Forge on and make beautiful things
Jim

 

Good idea, I just did. I looked at the wolf jaw tongs, have you used them? They also seem a lot less complicated to make. I'll look more into them and maybe try making some after practicing more.

Nice thing about making tongs, is you don't have to have tongs to make them. You can simply work with a longer piece of stock and hold that. I helped a young smith last year make his 1st set of tongs and gave him a few pairs I had that  I'd made back when I was learning so he had a small selection to work with until he made his own. There are plenty of "easy" tong designs out there that don't require a lot of forge skills to make.  A simple set of twist tongs are so easy just about any new smith can make a pair or two.Then as you progress in your skills, tongs are a useful project that helps you build and improve your skills,

Yeah, I watched the video that Brian Brazeal made on making tongs from an 8" long piece of 1" round stock. I feel like I might be able to do that if I try hard enough. What are some things that are typically first made by aspiring smiths? I was thinking a hot cut hardie, tongs, as billion a-hooks, fire stoker.

[DSW]

There are simpler methods of making tongs to start out with. Search twist tongs here and there is at least one thread on the subject I'm sure. Nothing against Brian's way of doing it, but when I 1st started out I had some issues wrapping my mind around how things needed to be done doing it that way. Some of the easier ways to make tongs allowed me to have a few pairs and work on something other than tongs for a while.

 

 

Starter projects can run the whole gambit depending on what interests you and what  you might need. Hooks are always a good starter project.

[metalmangeler]

Frosty has a pair of tongs that are just plyers with handle extentions arc welded on. They look like what they are, but he has used them quite a bit I think and they did the job for him. Normally you start out crawling before running. I have quite a few tongs and think that they make my life easier, but I started with just a twist tong and farriers tongs.

[bigfootnampa]

Vice grips were originally invented by a blacksmith for use as tongs... but they don't work well... fortunately they have other applications where they ARE useful.  I have a couple pairs of wolf jaw tongs... I hardly ever use them!  You are better off with tongs that have a narrower focus.  A set of 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", and 5/8" bolt tongs and 1/8" and 1/4" flat tongs will serve for about 95% of most smiths work... especially if they are in early stages of learning their craft.

[ThomasPowers]

Note that besides the half dozen tongs you use for your standard work you will probably have a couple that you adjust hot to cover the odd jobs you attempt.  Your use of tools on cold work probably didn't include the idea that you could easily alter the tool to suit the work...

[EtownAndrew]

Attached is a picture of my twist tongs. This sort of tong is so simple that the picture really tells you most of what you need to make them. They are the first pair of tongs that I make and I use them frequently. Since then I have made about 4 more tongs. You take two bars of 1/4" x 3/4" x 20" long steel. (Other similar steel sizes will work.) I don't know if it is better to put in the pivot first or twist it first. I think you could do it either way. Drill a 1/4" hole for a pivot through both bars and insert a 1/4" round bar into the pivot and hammer on both sides to mushroom the bar. Heat up the grip end, place grip end in a vise and twist 90 degrees using a crescent wrench. Adjust grip end by placing a piece of 1/8" sheet into it and hammering the grip end down to hold it. Done. This type of tong is good for holding sheet metal and up to 1/4" thick bars.

[Steve Sells]

Welcome.,  for the record I use 2 sets of tongs for most all my work.  one set is the common first set we make general purpose hind-itz the other a small wolf-jaw type for thin material I can not get good grab with the larger tongs.

 

I have 20 or so other sets that I made over the years for special projects, and they now mostly just hang there collecting dust.  There is no reason to destroy them, they may have a future use again, or maybe I will get another special project I can modify one of them for.

 

I have a 4.6 # hammer I do most all my forging with, and a 2# for finishing work.    I have made others for special needs, but I can do with out them.

 

We do not need to have a lot of various tongs and hammers to do our work, but as time progresses we seem to gather them because it is so fast and easy to make a new set tongs to hold an odd size.

[rockstar.esq]

One thing nobody's mentioned yet is that channel locking pliers are good at applying rotational force radial to a long axis.  If you try to hold a long object at one end with the grips in line - you'll see that there's very little purchase to keep the work from pivoting left and right to the jaw's axis.

 

Holding said piece of stock radially can put your off hand in an awkward position when you're trying to do something at the opposite end of the stock.  

 

So the channel lock would potentially excel at applying a twisting force to a bar but it'd would be lackluster at most everything else.

 

Another thing not mentioned yet is that ill fitting tongs make forging stressful.  As a beginner it's hard enough to learn to control everything - having a ripping hot piece of stock wobbling around makes it difficult to focus on the task at hand.  Clamping harder with your tong hand reduces your fine motor control.

[ThomasPowers]

I use a pipe wrench when I need to apply twist to a round bar and an adjustable wrench for a sq one.

[Frosty]

The Metalmangler beat me to it. Yes I have a pair of slip joint pliers with handles(reins) welded on. They came in a large lot of smithing tools I bought and when I noticed them I gasped and hid them. I mean REALLY, what kind of real blacksmith would use pliers with reins welded o them? Then came the day of truth, I was working a piece I don't recall what it was besides a PITA to hold with a REAL pair of tongs and in desperation I grabbed the stretch pliers. They worked a treat so I took them out of hiding and they live on my tong rack with the "real" tongs.

 

Okay, now a little personal gossip about my good bud Mark the Metalmangler. I don't know anybody who can make tongs as well or fast as Mark. He has a wall full of tongs, hung sometimes two or three deep, because he can make a pair faster than he can find one.

 

Another way to look at it is as learning projects tongs require the basic skills including precision and consistency you must make both halves the same or they just don't work well if at all. So, some years later you have WAY too many tongs hanging on the wall give a couple pair to a beginner. You free up some space on the rack and you help a new guy. Win win.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ForgeMan32]

Yea give them to a beginner like me send them by the box fulls . LOL ( -:', and frosty that was funny i would hide channel locks too but i have used vise grips when punching so the punch would be solid and i also tryed some store bought punches but if you get them red and quench in water they go bye bye . after the quench there like glass

[Leeknivek]

Thanks for all the replies, this has been really informative. I think I'll just make a few pairs of regular tongs - I have some scrap rebar, all conveniently about 14" long. That should suffice for tongs, right?

I have some of my grandfathers tools, too - he did auto body for 40 or so years. What do you think about taking the old style shears/snips (the ones that look like scissors, not aviation-style kind) and forging them into tongs? They don't cut at all, and I have multiple pairs. Worth a try?

[Frosty]

Rebar WILL work but it's a lot of work cleaning up. The snips and shears are not good candidates. Keep an eye open for coil springs, it makes nice tongs. Being medium carbon steel it's stiff enough you can forge light weight tongs and they'll still be plenty strong. The danger of using steel like spring steel or 4140 is you have to be careful to either keep them cool or if they get into the red heat just let them cool on the floor. If you quench them at red heat they'll likely get brittle.

 

Welcome to the addiction.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JNewman]

Snips can make some nice scrolling tongs.  But I would wait until your forging skills are much better before modifying them.   If you modify them at this point,  you will be very unhappy with your mods in a year or 2. 

 

I agree with Frosty on the rebar thing.  Steel is cheap!!!  I make my tongs from 1045 but make your first few pairs out of mild steel. 

[Kal]

As said earlier in this string, I would suggest either buying some wolf jaw tongs or finding a set of good tight tongs at a flea market somewhere.  I bought my first set of wolf jaws and used them for everything until I got used to forging other simpler things.  Now I make my own tongs.  My first few sets of tongs were so BAD that I could hardly use them.  No one needs that kind of frustration anytime but especially when starting out.  My biggest mistake was using too small a stock for the force needed to hold the piece.  That and I couldn't get the bits shaped right.

 

Good luck and enjoy

[Leeknivek]

Frosty, why is it a lot to clean up? 

 

I'm not using rebar to avoid cost, I go to the scrap yard every week! - I was just wondering if I could use what I already had on hand. 

 

If I don't like how they work, I can always buy a pair later on. To me, it's practice. I'm not trying to make the best tongs in the world - just tongs that I made for my use for nothing but the cost of my own labor. Even if they're lacking form and function, I think that's still something to be proud of. And a great way to learn how to make better tongs ;)

[Frosty]

It's the texture on the rebar designed to get it to bond in concrete that takes a lot of extra effort to clean up. The steel in rebar is a little unpredictable so don't quench in water, you might find it's high carbon and becomes brittle. Same thing in use, keep them cool or let them air cool on the floor if they get into the red heat. I like coil spring or 4140 for tongs, they're stronger and springier so you can make them thinner and lighter. You just have to treat them like they're made of tool steel and keep them cool and not quench them at heat. I think the trade off is well worth it.

 

Rebar is made from scrap and made to a performance spec so if it's strong enough to do X who cares what's actually in it. The specs are actually looser than A-36. The "new" steel surprises all of us once in a while.

 

With experience you'll find yourself identifying certain things by feel under the hammer, the higher the carbon content the more work it is to move it. Some alloying metals have the same or similar effects. I think it's especially nice of the steel industries to provide our lives the added distraction of a little mystery. Knowing exactly what to expect from a type of steel was just Sooooo boring.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Francis Trez Cole]

what ever you have will work I started with vice grips and channel locks. Once you learn to control the hammer at that point you can start making tongs. Just get hammering.

[torvalshank]

I know this topic is a bit older, but as another beginner, I'd like to chime in. 

 

I made a pair of simple tongs as my first project, out of some scrap rebar I had lying around. I heated it and hammered it flat, leaving a bit of the ridges along the narrow edges. Then heated one end, and stood it on the narrow side and hammered the last inch and a half flat, to make one jaw. Did the same thing again on another piece to get the other jaw. 

 

The hardest part for me was getting them to work well together; they kept catching against each other, one way or another. What finally did it for me was saying "screw it," and riveting them together with a pice of 1/4" steel rod, and then sticking the jaws back into the forge. 

 

Now that they were attached, (and hot,) a couple of good wacks with a small hammer brought them right into alignment, and they work like a charm. They look super rough, but even using rebar, I think I put less than 4 hours into the project, over a couple of days. I probably could've shaved an hour off if I had went ahead and attached them sooner to get the final adjustment done. 

 

They will work for now, and I have the pride of knowing that I made my own first set of tongs, before buying a set. I feel like it was a decent project for a beginner, as it let me practice a lot of different things throughout the process.