Would you buy and anvil without a horn???

[SubterraneanFireForge]

There’s this 150lb that someone’s selling not to far from me farly worn stump included for 200$ with one big catch IT DOESNT HAVE A HORN. 
I’m very curious to hear everyone’s thoughts on this if it’s or good deel or not and how important really is a horn?

My last cheap harbor freight anvil didn’t really have a horn either so I don’t have much experience with horns. 

Thank you for your input!

[Frosty]

No picture? 

Depends on why it doesn't have a horn. Was the horn broken off or is it a hornless pattern? 

What about the rest of the evaluation? The condition of the face and edges? How about it's rebound? 

Do you use a horn, if so for what? My Soderfors has a beautiful horn and I rarely use it for anything but a bottom fuller on occasion, It's edges have two different radiuses and I can do almost all my fullering on them. I's use the horn for truing up rings if necessary. 

$200 for a 150lb anvil sounds like a great price if it's in good enough condition. Post a couple pictures and we can give you more informed opinions.

Frosty The Lucky.

[swedefiddle]

A Sawyers Anvil doesn't have a horn, it works wonderful for it's job.

Neil

[George N. M.]

There has been a LOT of marvelous smithing work done on hornless anvils over the last couple of millenia.  A horn is nice to have for certain things but is not necessary for a lot of work.  Assuming the face and edges were in good shape and it passed a rebound test I'd buy it very quickly.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[SubterraneanFireForge]

The horn definitely was there at some point. 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

It looks like it would do a lot of work, provided the face is not detached and the ring is consistent & rebound is in the 60-70% range. Are there any markings on it to help with the maker.

 

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

[George N. M.]

Even without a horn it looks like a working anvil as long as it passes the test Irondragon mentioned.  I'd still buy it and use it.

G

[Daswulf]

Most important parts are there. You could make a bick for the hardy hole. So yeah, if the face plate is solid and it has decent rebound it is worth it. 

[Nobody Special]

The edges are meh, but at that price? Yeah, I'd probably go it unless the face was delaminating and soft.

[SubterraneanFireForge]

Thanks everyone for the input! Unfortunately there are no markings on the side. 
From everything that all you guys said it seems it’s worth checking it out in person and adopting if everything is good and I don’t find anything better. 

It’s not the best anvil but it will definitely be a step up from my harbor freight. In the pictures below 

[Ridgeway Forge Studio]

Is that an anvil or a piece of modern art? (The harbor fright)

 

horns are so overrated on anvils, unless you enjoy poking yourself on them…

[Frosty]

Oh MY! You should've contacted Harbor Freight as soon as you struck that. . .No, not ASO it's no longer shaped like an anvil. It's not even gray cast iron.

Yes, even a smooth boulder would be a step up let alone an injured good quality anvil. I would counter offer less in person while holding a handful of bills. I don't use the horn on my Soderfors much, sometimes as a bottom fuller and rarely to true up rings but that's about it. I do 99% of my forging on the face or a bottom tool.

Frosty The Lucky.

[BillyBones]

I very rarely use the horn of my anvil. I have tried but as far as fullering on it i get much better results using the soft edge or a hardy fuller. Mostly i just use the pein of my hammer on the flat face though. For rings and scrolls i have anvil bicks and the like for that. 

If i were looking for an anvil, i would buy it. If it had good rebound and no dead spots that is. 

[SubterraneanFireForge]

From what all you guys said it sounds like a good anvil to check out hammer and maybe in hand and if all is well that looks well a good anvil to adopt im surprised about how little you guys use your horns. I always thought it was a big part of blacksmithing that I was missing with my anvil blob.

thanks for all information!

haha my harbor freight served me welll (mostly) for about a year of sledgehammers poor hammer control and probably to cold metal. (I would have definitely picked up a smooth boulder though!)

I’m really looking forward to an upgrade.

thanks again everyone! 

[Ridgeway Forge Studio]

I have been thinking about this thread all day - I was watching some videos of Mark Aspery drawing out over the horn of his anvil, and noticed that it seemed inefficient compared with the work I have seen from others using half-faced blows over the sweet spot of the anvil. 

Given that the horn is unsupported in the vertical dimension and is only laterally supported, would it not tend to flex more under heavy blows compared to half-faced blows in the vicinity of the sweet spot? 

I know there is a lot of advice about drawing over the horn and, given the points of contact, seem to make sense. But is there any evidence? 

[Frosty]

Yes, there is plenty of evidence that drawing over a fuller, be it horn, edge or bottom tool, is more efficient than on the face. 

Mr. Aspery was classically trained in England and is very traditional so it's very unlikely he'd use more modern techniques. Not that he doesn't know about or is unable, it isn't traditional so he chooses not to. Lastly if Mr. Aspery looks inefficient in a video it is because he is demonstrating a technique NOT competing in a speed contest. The point of demonstrating techniques is that the audience is able to see what and how you do things at a pace they can grasp and hopefully perform themselves with a little practice.

No, the horn doesn't have direct support beyond the anvil's body, nor does the heel. They are not for "heavy" work. They are the way they are so you can work around them, say form a U shaped clip or a horse shoe. The result of doing HEAVY work on either can be seen in the 1st. post in this thread. 

Efficiency is a common goal for newcomers but it's not nearly your best focus. Try being Effective instead, efficiency is more a production goal. I don't recall what you're making as learning projects but I start folks out on leaf wall hooks so that's what I'll use as my example.

Effective is knowing what dimension stock to use, the best heat color per step, which step to do first and so on. Efficient comes in when you have 20 hooks to make in an afternoon so you precut your stock, have 2-3 in the forge as you hammer one in a round robin of hammering fury. You will be using the most effective techniques you know and adopt new ones as they come to you.

While you're learning the craft forget efficiency, you'll waste too much precious time and effort wondering about things that just don't matter like why a master smith apparently doesn't go as fast as another. Right now you want to focus on the best way to do the processes. Once you become proficient speed will come. It's like learning to type, even after you've learned the keyboard and can maybe touch type you're lucky to type 15wpm, in a week 25 and by the end of the semester 50+ is an A. When I was in jr high anyway. 

So relax and enjoy the craft, you are SUPPOSED TO hit things with hammers, play with fire, get dirty, smelly and end up with cool things! It doesn't get any better.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Nobody Special]

Holy moly, look at the grains on that HF ASO. Forget grey cast iron, that's lipstick on a pig iron. I've forged on rocks with much smaller grains.

[Ridgeway Forge Studio]

Frosty, 

Thanks for your reply! 

I am in no way doubting Mr. Aspery's skill - I have the highest regard for his work and his contributions to the ABANA curriculum. 

I think I mean to ask the question more along the lines of a conceptual thought experiment. Fullers are objectively more efficient that flat surfaces, but connecting the dots I wonder whether the unsupported horn takes away enough efficiency to negate its benefits. I have to wait for some mourning doves to hatch in my shop before I test out my theory. 

I think this ties in to two conversations commonly held here on IFI - the mounting of railroad track pieces as anvils and questions about mass. Ideally, a fuller would be supported uninterrupted all the way to the ground, the way some French pig anvils are with their slightly domed faces. If you had, for example, a horn that kept its top radii but extended vertically into the ground (which would make it not a horn I suppose), it would be more effective than an unsupported horn. 

A well dressed anvil edge seems to me to be, ounce for ounce, objectively more efficient than the horn in drawing out. That's all I'm trying to say. I have tried both ways, and, while it takes more precisions to ensure you don't get a cold shut, I feel that the edge of the anvil works as well if not better for drawing than a horn. 

That being said, I do think the overall size of the anvil makes a difference in drawing over the horn. My 350 Fisher has plenty of strength to resist flexing on the horn - but my 120lb Hay Budden seems (just a casual guess) to be less efficient, and I can't help but wonder if the Wrought Iron flexes in use. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that a horn has its uses, and drawing is certainly one of them. But drawing over the edge is a valuable skill that should be learned, and perhaps even preferred for general hand forging, such as drawing reins on tongs. 

Just my two cents. I enjoy a good theoretical conversation! 

-Pat 

[SubterraneanFireForge]

A benefit to using the horn for drawing out (brought up by someone that has never really done this in there life) but  it seems like using a horn instead of the sharp edge of the anvil would result in Les lumpyness that has to be forged down later. 
 

well said frosty probably the biggest killier of time resources and tools is,

using to big stock so u have to find your hot cut to remove your super long rat tail then you rush it trying to get the cut done in one heat and bonk your hardy tool and have to resharpen it and maybe reface your hammer   

like learn ing a new song buy effectiveness comes before speed

[SubterraneanFireForge]

I didn’t see your post before posting my last one

but that makes sense pat that the face of the anvil would be more efficient because of the mass behind it. 

I don’t think this should matter as much for little things because they don’t require that much force. 
and efficiency is more limited to how much metal you can can get forwards versus sectioning of metal when doing larger work. 

again I havet really worked with horns so my opinion is partially theoretical. 
 

[JHCC]

Efficiency is just effectiveness in a shorter time frame.

13 minutes ago, SubterraneanFireForge said:

it seems like using a horn instead of the sharp edge of the anvil would result in Les lumpyness that has to be forged down later. 

Not if done properly. If you're moving your workpiece a lot in between blows, then yes, you will end up with a sort of lumpy sawtooth pattern that will require a lot of smoothing. However, if you make sure to connect each divot, then the surface will be a lot more even. It's a little hard to explain, but this video from Brian Brazeal gives a good example of what I mean:

 

25 minutes ago, Ridgeway Forge Studio said:

Ideally, a fuller would be supported uninterrupted all the way to the ground, the way some French pig anvils are with their slightly domed faces. If you had, for example, a horn that kept its top radii but extended vertically into the ground (which would make it not a horn I suppose), it would be more effective than an unsupported horn. 

A more dramatic example is the kind of traditional Chinese anvil with a completely domed top:

 

[Ridgeway Forge Studio]

I think this addresses a few things: Anvil edges should not be 'sharp' - they are, in fact, radii fullers in a certain sense. 

Also, that Brian Brazeal video is the one I was thinking of for the effectiveness of moving metal with half faced blows. 

The answer to this thought experiment won't change my use of the horn, practically speaking, but it may go to show alternative ways to use hornless anvils or improvised anvils. The horn is a big draw for people, I think, and between that and the square tool holder on most London Pattern anvils, its what people most often stick on when buying an anvil. 

Understanding all parts of an anvil and their uses is important to know what is and is not quality. The anvil in the original post as the Hardy Hole - So a horn is not really that big of an advantage, especially if only used to true up rings - you can just as easily make a mandrel. But the anvil above has edges - these can be used just as well as a horn to draw out material. 

 

[BillyBones]

You should have several different radii on your anvil in my opinion. Near the cutting bench on the far side of my anvil it is a good 1/2" radius, that is what i refer to as the "soft" side. Makes an excellent fuller. I have a Mousehole that was made in the 1850's so much of it has come from being used for that purpose i suspect. Then the radii get smaller as you go around my anvil, to the front side that has very small radii. If i do need a sharp corner i use the end of the heal sideways or an anvil block.

About the support on the horn, the horn is an obtuse triangle and with the one angle on the bottom of the horn it is inherently stronger with more support than what a cylindrical shape would be. I think that is why some anvils the horn slighty points upward and is more of a scalene triangle. The driving force of the hammer blow is directed into the body of the anvil. Or i could be full of hot air on that.  

[Frosty]

Aren't there more factors to efficiency than just time John? How about material and power usage, waste disposal / processing, or personnel requirements, etc.? Your point about efficiency being a form or effectiveness is valid, enough. But, efficiency can't exist without effectiveness. No?

Pat, you're still stuck on the horn as a fuller, it isn't. The horn is a multi use forming tool, drawing is only one of them. It's like thinking your car is only good for taking the kids to school so you need another one to get groceries, another to get to work, etc. 

Fullering on the edge is much faster if certain conditions are met. First the edge is properly radiused for the purpose YOU need to perform the job at hand. For example if you are setting a step down the inside corner NEEDS a radius or it will be a failure initiation point. It only needs a minimum radius though, 1/32" is typically plenty. Try using a 1/32" radius to fuller and you'll end up doing it in many stages or have lots of ridges to planish out. Fullering ridges and planishing is how I learned to draw down long sections. A larger radius makes for less work so works better in general.

Lastly, how much do you know about Bryan Brazeal? If you look at the hammer in the picture you posted and compare it to the anvil face you can guestimate it's width and from that weight. Yes? Unless I'm mistaken that's one of his home made block steel anvils and has a face closer to 5 1/2" - 6" wide, I base that estimate on the general fact that Bryan typically swings a rounding hammer of his own making a bit heavier than 5lbs.  He draws with the pein on the edge If radiused properly AND it's a long reduction. He does short draw downs on the face or horn as suits the situation.

Bryan and Lyle demoed for our club for 3 days partially in exchange for a remote fishing trip so I've listened to and watched him work over a couple days. 

Then there's Mr. Aspery who is probably a foot shorter and 100lbs lighter who swings a "traditional" smithing hammer so he draws with either a flat face or a cross pein on the horn. 

A direct comparison doesn't work, two different men, two different products and philosophies. 

I think you're over estimating how your understanding of horns will affect things. The horn is a recent "invention" less than 300 years old IIRC and humans have been forging iron for closer to 4,000. For most of the world smiths don't use anvils with horns, we're the minority.

The horn is a big draw for folk's who's main education about blacksmithing is watching TV. I believe the only smiths I know who make regular use of the horn are farriers and the horns on their anvils are MADE to work horse shoes efficiently. Modern farrier's anvils have turning lugs making the horn less necessary still and they only come into play if shoes have to be made from bar stock. For the most part you size premade shoes to the hoof often but not always on the horn.

Once again, you're over analyzing a very complex craft with too little knowledge to be able to interpret most aspects let alone understand. I've been doing this more than 52 years off and on and my "understanding" is regularly corrected as being mistaken or most often not the better method. I hang here because I learn something new about the craft almost daily.

Blacksmith's craft is a never ending learning curve but you have to climb it with a hammer, anvil and fire. Reading is just knowledge, practice makes a smith.

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

4 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Aren't there more factors to efficiency than just time John?

I was being pithy rather than scientific.