Looking for a respirator

[Chimaera]

After doing some grinding yesterday, I took off my N95 mask and was horrified to see how filthy it was. When I blew my nose, it was black. Needless to say, I'm now rethinking my personal protective equipment (PPE) choices.

I know that many of you don't do as much grinding, but I'm hoping to get some recommendations for a respirator that's suitable for forging and grinding. I think I would prefer a full-face respirator over a half-face one with goggles because it's less likely to fog up and I won't be as tempted to just use eye protection without a mask. However, I don't have any experience with either, so I'm open to suggestions.

While I do my forging outside where it's well-ventilated, there are still occasional fumes from burning coal, so I want to make sure I'm protected. I assume that the style and cartridges needed for coal fumes are similar to those used for welding, but I thought I'd ask for advice from those who are doing similar work.

I don't have a lot of money to spend, but I know that investing in my safety is always worthwhile. After all, a $100 respirator is much cheaper than a $900,000 lung transplant. Thanks in advance for any recommendations or advice you can offer.

Chimaera

[ThomasPowers]

For grinding; a positive pressure respirator with the air intake in a "clean" area is a great way to go.  Be sure to screen against bugs though!

[Frosty]

Coal smoke outdoors isn't much of a hazard, it has a strong smell so you can avoid it if it gets heavy. 

Grinding dust and the particulates in smoke are both different than any potentially toxic "Gasses" in smoke.

Thomas's suggestion is as good as it gets for protection. Surgical masks don't seal against your face. A rubber mask with replaceable cartridges works very well when you choose the correct cartridges. The specs on the cartridges cover what they filter.

A full face mask is nice so long as it doesn't extend past your hairline, gasses, fumes and dust will infiltrate through your hair. Beards are worse though you CAN get away with wearing a mustache if it doesn't interfere with the mask.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Daswulf]

I'd recommend a 3m 6000 series half face respirator with p100 filters. 

They come in small medium and large so you would need to get the right size and do a fit test for best results. 

There was a thread about this on the forum somewhere with a lot of good info. 

[JHCC]

I use a Resp-O-Rator from Duxterity that I modified to take P100 filters. I love it, but I'm not sure it's available anymore. Failing that, Daswulf's recommendation is solid.

[Daswulf]

Just to add now that the kids are asleep and I have a little less divided focus:

The 6000 series is a pretty easy to wear mask with less restrictive movement. It is for dust and particulate and not recommended for gasses and solvents. That would be a different mask. 

I would highly recommend looking on OSHA website if you are unsure what you might need. Any brand NIOSH approved mask should work for its intended purpose. 

Working in a body shop we go through a class every year and get test fitted for our respirators as well for that. (Spoiler: they use banana oil that smells like banana Runts if anyone remembers those candies) If anyone would like a copy of that printout we get I could try to upload it or post pictures.  We do a safety class on safety data sheets as well. Sds or msds. Or whatever it is at the moment lol. It Is good info to know. 

[Frosty]

Resp-O-Rator shows right up on a web search so I imagine they're still available, John.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Chimaera]

Thomas- I did look at those, and while they look excellent, at over $1000 (for all the ones I saw) that would make it more expensive than my entire setup for forging, grinding, and woodworking combined. However, if I am simply looking at the wrong things, don't hesitate to correct me haha.

Frosty- I figured that the coal fumes would be a different canister from the grinding. While I usually don't have issues, I do sometimes feel a little ill after forging (though that may be due to fatigue). I also think that I end up with a bit of coal dust from whenever I'm adding fuel. Perhaps I should just wear something whenever I'm getting to the bottom of my bag? I couldn't get a beard even if I wanted to, so that's not an issue.

Das- Thanks for the recommendation. It looks like a good option. I looked at a couple threads on IFI but weren't exactly what I was looking for. I can look again.
 

John- I saw your thread on the Resp-O-Rator. I looked around and found the website, but nowhere that they are for sale.

Thanks for your help everyone!

[M.J.Lampert]

16 hours ago, Daswulf said:

 

Working in a body shop we go through a class every year and get test fitted for our respirators as well for that. (Spoiler: they use banana oil that smells like banana Runts if anyone remembers those candies) If anyone would like a copy of that printout we get I could try to upload it or post pictures.  We do a safety class on safety data sheets as well. Sds or msds. Or whatever it is at the moment lol. It Is good info to know. 

how nice, when I worked at a concrete plant they put a spray in the hood that almost makes one upchuck you had to do movements for 10 min and if you smell it at any time you have to reset and start again

M.J.Lampert

[Frosty]

I finally tracked Resp-O-Rator down on Amazon and after some deep fishing found the listing as out of stock and no idea when or if there will be more. 

Some folk are more sensitive to smoke or fumes than others ad there are a number of things released from coal when you burn it. When you set up do so with any breeze blowing across between you and the forge so it carries the smoke away. Putting the breeze at your back is actually worse than having it blowing at you across the fire. From behind you it eddies up around you and draws smoke, etc. into you and up into your face. 

Having it blow crossways is an old welder's trick, being right handed I preferred it blowing left to right so the arc was on my right and the smoke had the shortest distance to be clear of me. Smithing I like it blowing right to left for the same reason as it places the fire closest to clearing me. 

Make sense?

Of course a smoke stack is easy to rig even if your forge isn't set up for one. A piece of angle iron mounted vertical will let you clamp or wire a section of stove pipe to it with the bottom end maybe 4-6" above the fire ad behind it. A little bit fancier and you'll have a side draft forge. 

When we did mask fit checks we only had to put up with sugar water misted at us. Any leaks and it smelled surprisingly strongly.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Chimaera]

Makes sense. Thanks Frosty. Currently I don't have a source of coal (forgot to buy some at Tractor Supply before they stopped for the season) so I may end up just using propane anyway this summer haha. Have calling some people about it on my to do list. Not sure when I'll get to it though, been pretty hectic recently. ]

95% of the time I don't have any issues, but then I occasionally just get a moment of almost feeling like I have mild chemical irritation in my throat (think what it feels like when you get a big whiff of boiling vinegar) when forging with the coal. It isn't that bad and only lasts a few seconds, but I have to imagine it's an indicator of possibly more serious issues. Haven't had it with propane so I figured it was some impurity in my coal burning off. I use anthracite.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

What you have to watch out for with propane is CO (Carbon monoxide), so in that case a CO detector is mandatory if you are using it indoors. We use ours outside so CO isn't a problem for us but for the rare occasions it's used in the shop the CO detector is always in use even though the shop is very well ventilated.

 

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sails. ~ Semper Paratus

[Chimaera]

Yes, I only forge outside unfortunately. Would love to have a shop indoors but no luck.

[Frosty]

If you're getting a sensation like a whiff of hot vinegar in your throat, you're probably getting a whiff of sulfur or phosphate smoke which turns to sulfuric or phosphoric acid on contact with the moisture in your innards. (mouth, throat, nose, eyes, etc.) Yes, sulfuric is sour, more so than phosphoric.

A general note to remember. acidic is sour. If it's bitter it's alkaline and seeing as most organic and mineral toxins are alkaline, spit bitter stuff out! You can smell bitter too though I can't describe it, you'll know it. Just get out upwind.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Daswulf]

8 hours ago, M.J.Lampert said:

you had to do movements for 10 min

We have to show positive pressure then negative pressure then count to thirty while moving our head up down left and right for each number while under a plastic sheeting with the banana oil in it. 

I've told them jokingly to replace that with stinky spray to catch the liars but every year when we do have to take our mask off it is still banana oil. 

Guess it should be mentioned here as well that the filters have a usable life span, typically told to us is 40 hrs. or 30 days. When not in use you should place your dried/cleaned (dont want to seal it up sweaty)  respirator in a sealed container like a ziploc bag or sealable container to extend filter life. 

The half mask I mentioned is often used for welding as well so it should help you out well with forging with coal. Being that you forge outdoors that should suffice. If not then try the mask and filters a step up rated for gas and vapor. 

 

[Chimaera]

10 hours ago, Frosty said:

whiff of sulfur or phosphate smoke which turns to sulfuric or phosphoric acid

That's what I was wondering. My understanding is that anthracite generally doesn't contain much sulfur or phosphorus, but probably enough that especially if I'm forgewelding I might get a whiff sometimes. I generally don't smell the sulfur, but it would make sense for it to be one of those. If it is sulfuric acid, it is definitely an issue in large concentrations, but at the concentrations and frequencies I'm dealing with it shouldn't be too harmful.

Thanks for the help Das. I was going to get some extra cartridges so I can swap them out when need be.

[George N. M.]

Almost all coal commercialy mined in the US today is fairly low sulphur because of the Environmental Protection Act or 1970.  Sulphur was the main cause of acid rain in the '60s.  This is why Wyoming is the largest producing state of coal.  The coal here is subbituminous which means it is lowish in heat value per ton but it is low sulphur coal.  Most coal in the eastern US has a high suphur content which requires large and expensive scrubbers to remove it from the stack gases.  So, it is cheaper to ship low sulphur Wyoming coal a thousand miles or more to furel power plants than it is to remove the sulphur from closer mines.  Unfortunately, most western coal is pretty crappy coking coal which makes it a poor choice for a blacksmith (I know, I've tried it.  It went poorly.)

So, in the application of the blacksmith sulphur as an irritant is seldom a problem because most of the coal around does not have much and almost all the gases go up the chimney or are blown away if you are forging outside.  Unless your shop gets full of smoke when you are forging you very probably do not need to protect yourself from smoke.  (grinding particulates are another matter).

You may be able to determine the sulphur content of your coal.  Your supplier may know that it comes from the ABC mine in, say, KY.  You may be able to determine what company owns the ABC mine, contact them, and ask what the sulphur conteant (and other characteritics if you are interested) of ABC coal is.  This may be more difficult is you buy your coal from a retailer who buys if from a distributor but you may be able to start the process by contacting the distributor.  You may also be able to determine the characteristics of ABC coal by contacting the Geological Survey of the state where it is mined.

I have never used a respirator while forging but I have used one while doing something that generated a lot of particulates like grinding or sanding.  If your nose mucus/snot is black when you blow your nose after being in the shop you should have been using a respirator.  A few times like that probably will not hurt you but it will educate you on when you should be wearing one or not.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

I didn't mean to say sulfur or phosphate WAS the cause, just that it was possible. You're sense of smell just might pick up on sour better than most folks. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[M.J.Lampert]

16 hours ago, Daswulf said:

We have to show positive pressure then negative pressure then count to thirty while moving our head up down left and right for each number while under a plastic sheeting with the banana oil in it. 

that's the same, and then jumping jacks etc., no cheating with this as it shows on your face if you smell it

[Daswulf]

I fit my mask proper for the test. It would be funny if they ever did switch to stinky spray. We aren't made to do jumping jacks. 

For us guys that have been through it enough times the whole thing is annoying. Then again you could probably imagine how many guys shave their face proper just for the test fit check. 

[Chimaera]

Thanks for the info George. That definitely makes sense. Yes, I where a mask whenever I remember but I think sometimes my disposable masks don’t seal well or are just not up to snuff. They’re also very uncomfortable and cause lots of fogging, so that’s another reason I’m looking for a better respirator. 

[JHCC]

On 4/26/2023 at 11:43 PM, Daswulf said:

Guess it should be mentioned here as well that the filters have a usable life span, typically told to us is 40 hrs. or 30 days. When not in use you should place your dried/cleaned (dont want to seal it up sweaty)  respirator in a sealed container like a ziploc bag or sealable container to extend filter life.

I assume you're talking about organic vapor cartridges? A particulate filter gets used up as dust etc gets pulled into it by the wearer's inhalations, so no breath, no clog. VOC cartridges, on the other hand, work with an absorbent (e.g., activated charcoal) that continues to work even when not in use.

[Daswulf]

I'm very sure you are right. They test us with vapor filter masks for paint and primer and other solvents. They mention the other filters and masks but they only ever mention about the 40hrs./30 days. 

I agree with what you say about the particulate filters but the 40/30 has been drilled on me for a long time. I have gone till a particulate filter went "stuffy" at home, but it is better to change them out at some point. Might as well go with a set usage time. 

I would still keep any reusable masks in a sealed container or bag when not in use. All the better if you can toss in one of those absorbent packets in with it. 

[JHCC]

Certainly. 

[gewoon ik]

11 hours ago, Daswulf said:

I'm very sure you are right. They test us with vapor filter masks for paint and primer and other solvents. They mention the other filters and masks but they only ever mention about the 40hrs./30 days. 

I agree with what you say about the particulate filters but the 40/30 has been drilled on me for a long time. I have gone till a particulate filter went "stuffy" at home, but it is better to change them out at some point. Might as well go with a set usage time. 

I would still keep any reusable masks in a sealed container or bag when not in use. All the better if you can toss in one of those absorbent packets in with it. 

if only to keep the dust out of the inside part of the mask. So nice to put on your mask only to feel all the dust on your face