Fuel economy solid v gas

[huntmaster99]

So this has probably been debated many times before but I want to just get a general opinion from the community here. Not trying to say which is better.

So at current prices:
Propane: 4.50$ per gallon
Coal: 22$ per 50lb bag plus 2 hours of driving.

After my last propane fill I am seriously considering building a solid fuel forge to take a good portion of the work that the gas forge is doing. But im not sure how economical it is to run coal, in otherwords I have no idea how long 100lbs of coal will last since thats how much I could buy instead of filling a 40 lbs propane tank (holds 9.6 gallons)
How long is sold fuel lasting, assuming good fire management and not leaving the blower on the whole time.

Also how much does coal smell? My neighbors live about 60 feet from my house and im in the middle of a small town of about 3k. I could use charcoal and that shouldnt be offensive. Wanted to get some opinions on this as well.

[George N. M.]

While there is always the basic question of how many BTUs are in a dollar's worth of whatever fuel there are also the practicalities to consider.  For example, storage.  If you own one or two 20 pound propane tanks that is as much as you can store at a time and then you have to go to the propane dealer and refill.  If you have storage space for 500 or 1000 pounds of coal you may have to make the drive only every few years.  So, if you are figuring gas and your time into the fuel cost equation it may affect the outcome. 

While I have never calculated it my general sense is that it is cheaper to forge with solid fuel but propane is more convenient.  It, of course, depends onhow large your forge is.  If you have alittle JABOD or rivet forge you will use much less fuel than a big Champion that came out of a major industrial site.

Coal smoke smells of "coal" but if you are doing proper fire management and burning coke thatis produced around the fire the smoke and odor are minimal.  You may have smoke for 10 minutes but then it clears out.

When I was living in town I had the same issue and went to burning coke which costs roughly the same or a bit more than coal.  It takes more attention to the fire but I have continued to burn coke even though I am in a semi rural area.  You have to keep some air flowing to a coke fire while you do not with coal.  This is easy if you are using an adjustable electric blower but if you are using a hand crank you have to give it a turn every minute or two.  With a coke fire you can go into the house to get a drink or take a bathroom break and come back and crank up the fire but if ykou go in for lunch the fire will be out when you return.  The same if you are doing bench work.  I've gotten used to this fact but it took some adjustment.  I get my coke from a farrier supply place about 80 miles away.

Also, it pays to cultivate you neighbors with little hand forged gifts like bottle openers, etc..

So, in your situation I would say that the order of preference for fuels would be A) propane, B ) coke, and C) coal considering both fuel costs and neighbor issues.  The cost of peace with the neighbors may be worth higher fuel costs.  That said, I have had folk tell me that they liked the smell of coal smoke because it reminded them of their childhoods and coal stoves and furnaces.  Costs and hassle may even out depending on your local situation.

BTW, you are getting your propane from an actual propane dealer, e.g. Suburban Propane, and NOT from a tank exchange place, right?  The cost of refilling your own tanks is much lower than doing an exchange and the exchange places often short change you by not filing their tanks to capacity.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Glenn]

It may help to base your decision on if a fuel is available in your local area, and the .BTUs in each fuel.  The metal does not care how it gets hot,  that it is hot enough to be worked.

While you are at it, look into electric induction heating.  Lots of advantages after you get past the initial cost.

[huntmaster99]

So im running a twin burner gas forge at the moment, took the burners off the Mr Volcano hero 2 and repurposed them for this. So I am currently getting propane from a refill station since im using 40lb tanks but ive seen prices listed online for half the price of what im paying. So maybe I need to find one of those places that distributes to large household tanks and see if I can go to them. Not sure if BAM has coke but that was something I considered. Sounds like I need to call around and see what I can find out... its so far lead me to a closer and cheaper source of steel so heres hoping.

[arkie]

Hunt...try to refill your propane tanks at a propane distributor.  Much cheaper.  I get my 20# tanks filled at the local MFA Oil/Propane dealer who also fills my residential 320 gal. tank.  MFA is a Missouri company with distribution even down here in AR.  Don't know if they service your area or not.  My last refill a couple of weeks ago was $2.40/gal.

[LeeJustice]

I looked at a St. Louis area Tractor supply site which lists propane at $3.59 per gallon for a refill.

[huntmaster99]

I was trying to ask around the local places on my side of the river (Near O'Fallon IL) and its all about the same price. I even asked one of the local places that fill the big residential propane tanks and they still have the same 40$ price. Id have to check with Amerigas but their call number wasnt helpful. And for me to drive over to St Louis is almost to where the coal supply is. I was wrong and for members of BAM its actually 16$ per 50lbs bag. Even if I where to get propane for 2$ a gallon which is residential price it is exactly the same price per BTU. Im going to keep looking and ask around my neighbors. Maybe there is something im missing. Unfortunately I do have to drive to the other side of the river and the biggest tank my car can handle upright is 40#. Otherwise id have 2 100# tanks and drive into St Louis for the cheaper price. Also I have to think about the fact that when I inevitably move, the movers will not take propane tanks due to the flammable gas hazmat

Gonna keep looking but I havent found a big gas distributor that actually offers a better price than 4.50$ a gallon

[George N. M.]

FYI, I just filled my 2 30# tanks at Murdock's (a farm and ranch supply store similar to Tractor Supply or Big R) today and it was $3.99/gallon.  The last time I called around to the other bulk dealers here in Laramie, Suburban Propane and Amerigas, the prices were all within a few cents/gallon of each other.

GNM

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

2 hours ago, huntmaster99 said:

biggest tank my car can handle upright

Have you had them filled? There is a law federal and most states about not transporting tanks in an enclosed vehicle.

[George N. M.]

If there is it is not being strictly enforced, at least around here.  I was the one who loaded them into my SUV, not the employee.  I transport them upright on the seats with a seat belt around them.  Fortunately, I am only about 2 miles and 6-7 minutes from the propane filling station.  The larger problem is horsing around the filled tanks around.  A full 30# tank is about as much as I can handle.

I can understand the rationale behind such a law but it would be almost impossible to enforce.  When you consider how many 20# BBQ tanks are transported in vehicles that are not pickups (I suspect the trunk of a sedan is an "enclosed" space) you are probably talking about a majority of the transport of tanks (by tank, not by weight or volume).

GNM

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I think I used the term law incorrectly. My propane and welding supplier's both told me that OSHA regulations/rules prohibited them from loading or allowing any gas cylinder in an enclosed vehicle.

[George N. M.]

OK, that makes more sense.  If the customer loads it then there is no violation for the supplier.  The filled tank is the customer's property and he/she can do with it as they choose and at their own risk.

That said, I try to minimize the time the filled tanks are in my car and I always keep them upright.  Yes, there is a bit of a risk but it is pretty unavoidable.  I tend to be pretty fire/explosion aware since my father was a Captain on the Chicago Fire Department.

That is one of the drawbacks of a propane forge vs. solid fuel.  It's hard to blow up your shop with a leaky pile of coke.  (There are some varieties of coal that can self combust, particularly when wet.  This was a significant problem back in the days of coal fired steamships).

GNM

[anvil]

Blacksmiths coal, coking coal, is far more economical than gas and a coal forge is far more versatile than gas. Lol, when you use coal and turn to the anvil, you can decrease your fire but when using gas, it always runs at 100%. Gas is more convenient. George sums it up pretty well in his first post.

[gewoon ik]

It all depends where you life anvil. So not a general advice.

[anvil]

Lol, private opinion, not general advice.  Whenever I use a gas forge and turn to my anvil, I just can't get away from the wasted energy when I hear the roar of the dragon and see its long tongue lashing out of the opening. 

I worked in Prague with a group of smiths in '87. He got his coke from the Gypsies. Who knows where they got it. They still use coke as an easier to get and less expensive fuel source, not to mention the limits a gas forge has when doing large scrolls. Also, I know Joey used coke and he is in your part of the world. Alas, I don't think he is active anymore.

Considering the color the world seems to be headed, both coal and gas may be expensive and hard to come by. We all may be making our own charcoal for our fuel supplies. 

[Jobtiel1]

I use coal as well, last I time I bought it it was 27.50 euros for a bag of 25 kg. I've seen online suppliers as well but I don't like paying for shipping, it's at least 20 euros. I don't really know the price for propane here but I remember when I checked it that it was quite a bit more expensive than coal.

Shame that the Dutch coal mines closed a while ago and most English ones are depleted, I think almost all of it is imported which makes it more expensive too. The war in Ukraine also raised the price recently. I used to pay 22.50 for a bag of 25kg.

~Jobtiel

[gewoon ik]

10,5l propane is 35 at my supplier. I can forge 8-9 hours with it. But my forge is not yet dialled in supergood. I think i can 1 max 2 hours extra.

Coal i believe we use half a bag every 3 hours.

No idea about coalprices. Don't have a coalforge. 

[anvil]

Obviously, fuel usage depends on what you are working on. My routine is to add a 5 gal bucket to my forge in the morning and a 5 gal bucket beside my forge. This usually lasts the day, as a full time smith. If I am forge welding or forging 2" square stock, I use more. If I am forging a bunch of 1/4" finials, I use a lot less.  Without knowing the details, its hard to compare the two. I also buy my coal loose and by the ton, which makes a big difference. I don't believe I come anywhere near spending the cost of a 10# propane bottle When using coal for the same time. To be honest, I don't burn propane in my shop, I do use it in other folks shops but I have never really done a detailed cost analysis. 

[natkova]

I found it economical to use fuel lets say charcoal to put bunch of it for some piece than to poot small amount every now and then.

Do you know what you mean, if you put small amount of fuel in forge, you will loose more fuel becasue every now and then you will be adding more and more fuel to fill void, but if you have good heat even if you have more coal charcoal its not that issue, use wet rugg tied to iron bar, and sprinkle around fire every now and then, same can be done with some  cat food can or something like that,  drill under can small holes with nail, and make handle from rod, then rivet can to rod, and you have sprinkler for your forge.

I hope i was being clear abou my toguhts what i meant and what i said.

 

[BillyBones]

I switched from propane to coal becaus of cost. 

When talking cost you need to figure hours. I am on average in my shop with the forge running 20 - 30 hours a week. I was going through 2-3 20# bottles a week of propane (granted my forge was also not the most efficient though) At an average at the time of $16 to refill, lets say 10 bottles a month. That comes out to $160 a month. 

I get my coal, which is  bit more than most places, at $215 a ton. My last delivery was $600... in July of 2021, i am about 2/3 off the way through it. So for what less than 4 months worth of propane would get me i got 2 years worth of coal to run my forge 20-30 hours a week. 

The disadvantage to coal is 1) it is dirty. No matter how i try the wife complains about black smudges in the house. Not to mention the soot and dust all over the shop. 2) ventilation and smoke extraction is of the utmost importance. While a propane forge will consume the oxygen in a shop, a coal fire's smoke path can change. If i turn my torpedo heater on the draft from the heater will cause about 1/3 maybe half the smoke to not go up my chimney and it can get smoky inside real fast. 3) storage. 3 tons of coal is a pretty good size pile. You will need someplace to store it and keep it dry. I have a barn but that also introduces the problem of my barn cats using it for a litter box. 4) transport. Like i said i get mine delivered. If you do not have that option then you must average in the cost of transportation as well. 5) as pointed out, neighbors. My neighbor are not even 60 feet apart and that is with me between them. The kids on one side i hardly ever see and a single mom on the other side whose mother said to me one day that she loves the smell of my forge becuasee it reminds her of being at her grandpa's house as a kid. Across the street i have a fireman that i can pick his brain about fire safety or regulations if need be. 

Coal is dirty, takes up space, pain to transport but cheap.

Propane, clean, barely a footprint, easy to transport, but more costly. (And the cats do not use it as a litter box, trust me you do not want to burn that.) 

[natkova]

Its irony in my country we have coke factory and i still cant buy coke, nor coal, we have a lots of mines, still blacksmiths here use charcoal, only big factories use colal/coke like one in Zenica wich have big foundary.

Lot's of mines just cant buy it in bags you need to buy it in tons.

Solid fuel is good for upsetting while its better for forging i think o use gas forge, and gas forge is loud ( i never used gas forge) only accetylene torch in school to weld some pipes as i am plumber, (thats storry how i get started liking smithing) yellow to red heat when it transfer after you light pipe with torch and use rod as bead to weld.