Arm and Hammer, good buy?

[Mag29]

I am looking for some advice. I don’t actually forge, but I’m looking to buy my husband an anvil for Christmas. I’ve been reading a lot of reviews on different anvils and have gathered some good info on knowing what’s a good deal, anvil, etc. 

I just found an anvil by Arm and Hammer. Looked on here and read a little about it being a pretty good anvil. There is one for sale for $900 but it’s a 6 hour drive. It’s 151lbs and it’s looks to be in good shape. Would it be worth me driving 6 hours away to buy it because it’s such a good deal? I realize rebound and such I can’t check until I’m there. But in general does it sound good? He has dropped the price due to not being able to sell it. I live on the west coast.

Also, it’s not actually sold. He marked it as sold due to the location being wrong.

[FlatLiner]

Arm and hammer made a really good anvil from what I understand. The price seems to be about what it would be going for out here in the mountain west of the USA. If it were me I would be heading out to look at it and I would take a small hammer and a ball bearing to check the hardness and condition of the face of the anvil. From the pictures it seems to be in pretty good condition.

[George N. M.]

Welcome aboard from 7500' in SE Wyoming.  Glad to have you.

The answer to your question depends a lot on where you are.  This is a world wide forum and we don't know if you are in Lapland or Tasmania.

I'm going to assume that you are in the USA.  For comparison, brand new anvils can range up to $5-6 per pound.  Yours, at $600, is just under $4/pound.  It appears to be in pretty good shape assuming the ring and rebound are good.  I would say that it is an OK price, probably in the high average range.

One thing to consider is where your husband is in his journey into the craft.  If he is a complete beginner I would say to hold off on the purchse of an anvil of this cost because he may or may not decide he likes the craft and wants to pursue it.  It's sort of like musical instruments.  You don't buy a very good violin for someone just starting out.  However, if he is into the craft already and it appears that he will continue for the foreseeable future this is a good anvil for a 1 man shop. On the other hand, unless misused and damaged it is unliely to go down in value.

About the only thing that could be done to it is to remove the rust with a wire wheel and coat it with boiled linseed oil (BLO) to prevent re-rusting.  DO NOT grind on it at all.

If it were me, I would check the rebound and ring when I went to pick it up.  Also, if you tap around on the face (top) of the anvil there should be no "dead" sounding areas because that means the tool steel face has delaminated from the wrought iron body.  If that was the case I would pull the plug on the deal and drive back home.

If you are in the eastern US you ought to be able to find a similar anvil closer than 6 hours away just because of the higher density of people and anvils there.  If you are in the western US where there are fewer people and anvils 6 hours  is probaby a reasonable 1 way drive drive.

Others may have different opinions and advice.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I agree with George, at $900 would put it at $6.00 per pound. Anvils are not considered antique until they are 200 years old or older. I would go and look at it and if it passes the ring & rebound test offer $600 Top $700 a more reasonable price and a good buy.

[Mag29]

I apologize for not placing my location. Figuring all this out. I live in Washington State, US. 
 

My husband does not currently forge. I bought him a class to forge a knife to make sure he would like it in 2018 (we started watching forged and fire and that’s how he learned about forging) and he’s been obsessed with it even more so ever since. He seems to know a lot for someone who doesn’t own his own forge. In my opinion ☺️but he is aware he could learn so much more.

Most steel anvils that I have found range from $700 (usually not in very good condition from what I can tell) $850 or $1000 or more depending on the brand of anvil, weight, and condition. If buying one so expensive seems unreasonable for a beginner any advice on what to get him to start with? If I understand correctly, the heavier the anvil the better. I’m not looking for 200lbs or heavier right now. I started looking between 75-100 at first. After I kept reading I went up to 150lbs-ish for the heaviest. I guess on this part I’m at a loss. I don’t want to buy cast iron preferably, but I don’t want to be unreasonable either. My BIL’s recommended Vevor as one to buy since it’s not so expensive, but I’m not sure on the quality. 
 

if offering $600-$700 after testing it, would that seem kind of like an insult since most seem to go for more around my area? Or am I just looking in the wrong places?

 

Last question. I ordered the AIA book, but could someone tell me when the A&H was made? I think is the serial number: 35935.

 

thank you all for your input/advice. I’ve been looking for about a month and I feel like I'm hitting brick walls trying to get this done.

[George N. M.]

IMO, 100 pounds is a good starting anvil weight.  That's what I started with.  You can use smaller anvils, particularly if they are mounted on a heavy base.  Accepted wisdom is that 150-250 pounds is the ideal weight for a 1 man shop.  That said, many smiths suffer from anvil envy and want bragging rights on the heaviest anvil around.

There is also the possibility of starting out with an improvised anvil such as a length of railroad track, a bulldozer weight, or any large, heavy lump of steel.  There are long threads here on IFI about improvised anvils.

BTW, props to you for wanting to do this for your husband.  You don't happen to have an interest in fiber arts (spinning, weaving, sewing, embroidery, etc.) do you?  It seems that many folk interested in blacksmithing are "steel wool" couples.  I have been at blacksmithing events where there was a group of spouses outside the shop door spinning and working on other fiber projects.

You will probably get more responses here tomorrow.

GNM

[Glenn]

Look up and read Thomas Powers Applied Anvil Acquisition Technique (TPAAAT).  Basically it says to ask everyone about what you need to find.  Have business cards printed up telling folks what you want and brief contact information. 

Read A collection of improvised anvils.  It does not have to look like a London pattern anvil,  Any heavy piece of metal can be serviceable. if it works, it is an anvil.

Once you get your first anvil, they seem to fall out of the trees and find you.  Nothing wrong with having two anvils, as you can then find which anvil you like best and trade up or sell off the extras.

An anvil weight is between 100 and  150 pounds is a very usable weight. 

Go to the Holland Anvil website and look at their NEW anvils and prices. Tell them you heard about it in IForgeIron.

 

The next item he will be interested in is a hammer.  Any 2 pound hammer will work.  Look at the flea markets for a used hammer, machinist hammer, ballpein hammer, or what ever you can find.  It does not have to be expensive and they should be found for 2-10 dollars.  While your looking for hammers use TPAAAT and ask about anvils while your there.

Tongs to hold the metal can be easily made.  Read BP001 Easy to make tongs and are good started tongs.

The more you read the more you learn about that you need.  Remember, blacksmithing is fun, so do not get frustrated.  Ask questions and we will try to guide you. 

We want you and your husband to succeed, we just need to work together to make that happen.

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

The Arm & Hammer serial number range according to AIA is 32908-1918... 36774-1919 so I would say 35935 was made in 1919. I agree with the good starting out weight at around 100 lbs is more than enough anvil.

We have 5 anvils and the heaviest weighs 110 pounds. In my 32 years of hammering on hot steel, I have never needed a heavier one. My wife also is a blacksmith and her favorite anvil is a Hay Budden that weighs 108 pounds. My favorite is a Vulcan that weighs 110 pounds. When we go traveling to meetings or demonstrations we take a 55 pounder and you would be surprised what we can make on it. Debi forged out a Karambit knife on it. The nice thing about anvils in that weight range is they are easy to move around.

[Frosty]

Provided it passes a rebound test and has no dead spots, I'd eyeball the line between the steel face and body, it looks odd in the pics. If it appears to be anything but smooth with different color I'd bring it up as a strong bargaining point. Don't be bashful about offering $600 that's more than fair and make him convince you to pay maybe $700.

For $900 a new anvil is attractive. Holland makes excellent anvils but Nimba is in Port Townsend Wa. a what maybe 2-3 hour drive if you're west of the Cascades? Shipping is a big factor in price. Nimba Anvil dot com has their products, price, etc. A quick look showed the 120lb Titan for $975+ tax (Wa  taxes! shudder ) for a brand spanking NEW properly heat treated, cast alloy steel anvil with a life time guarantee. Resale on one isn't going to go down. 

If nothing else the price of a new Nimba will be a strong bargaining chip on the A&H you're looking at. Mention that you're considering one BEFORE making a counter offer and see what the seller discounts his asking price. 

Heck if you talk to Nimba make a counter offer on their asking price the worst they can do is say no. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

One thing we (blacksmiths) are famous for is haggling over the price of something. I have found that some sellers are actually insulated if I don't try and get a better price.

[Frosty]

From my experience if the seller doesn't squawk my counter offer too high.

Frosty The Lucky.

[natkova]

What is difference between haggling and bargain ,,? 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

No real difference. Bargaining is just a more polite term of haggling.

[Les L]

I always thought that a bargain was already priced slightly below cost and I didn’t need to haggle. But, I do like to haggle most of the time 

[Frosty]

Bargaining is a verb, a bargain is an adjective or wait maybe a noun. . . . . . John!? 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mag29]

I found an acme about 2 hours from me. It’s a little rough but it’s $400.00 and 100lbs. Which 100lbs is actually what my husband was looking for. He’s content with starting smaller until he gets the hang of things. You guys brought me down because I want to buy him what sounds like the best, but it would be better if he got started on one and picked his own later. 

You all have been really helpful!! I really appreciate your patience with me!!! Definitely helped me not give up and lessened my stress.
 

George N M, I do not do any of those things. My husband would be thrilled if I did. No interest right now. Maybe that will change. I said I’d never hunt, but I got my hunting certificate and plan to go this weekend for my first buck and elk… So I’m learning to never say never!

Due to the rough edges I’m not afraid to bargain this one, or haggle it down a little more. When it’s something harder for me to see or know it’s not the best condition I’m definitely shy about it. I’ll try not to submit any more photos…..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[George N. M.]

Mag, actually this one looks to be in pretty good shape and the price is not bad.  Do the ring and rebound test before you pull the trigger.  The reason we tell you that is that an anvil can go through a structure fire and look pretty much the same but the temper has been pulled from the face which means it is soft.  Not all anvils ring sharply but the rebound is the real test.  80-90% rebpund is excellent, 70-80% is OK, 50-70 is mediocre, and anything less than 50% is bad.

GNM

[Daswulf]

One can forge a lot on a 100#anvil. The face looks more than usable. The edges arent a big concern on it but yes, definately bargain since a chunk of steel could truly work as well. It is just a bit of luxury having the horn, pritchel hole and hardy hole.  

Don't forget the tests as George mentioned before laying down any money. 

 

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning Mag,

Washington State is the heart of the North West Blacksmith Association (www.blacksmith.org). You are surrounded by many members, wherever you are in the State. They use a building at the Fairgrounds in Longview. They meet every month. They have a 'Spring Conference' in May (generally). It should be part of your HUNT.

Yes, I also am a member.

Neil

[Mag29]

The ones that seem decent or y’all tell me are decent go quick! Lol I’ll have to learn to be faster I guess. 
 

Swedefiddle, I had found that and planned on signing my husband, Charlie, up once he opened everything for Christmas. Is there a way I could pay to go this Saturday to talk to people and say what I’m looking for but not get the membership? 

[Glenn]

Everyone is looking for a good anvil, whether they need it or not.  Carry cash and take the truck as soon as you find one. 

A phone call to hold an anvil is only as honest as the seller.  

 

Email webmaster@blacksmith.org and ask them your questions on how the organization operates.  They will know.