Witness Marks…thoughts….

[TastefullyPeenedIronWorks]

Wondering what ya’ll think of forging things to the point of removing the witness marks.  I have always been of the impression that a master removes the whiteness marks through the fabrication process ultimately resulting in a work that appears to have always been as it appears…i.e. the witness marks show the craftsman’s work, process, mistakes(whether unintentional or purposeful). 
My father and I were having a nice little banter back and forth as he believed that the subtle markings helped to reinforce the handmade quality, that making something to the point of it being devoid of human touch makes it appear as though it was mass produced on/in a machine.  I argued the latter, forging/fabricating to that level of mastery is kinda the goal, right? Who’s with me!?! 

[1forgeur]

Depends

[BillyBones]

We all no you can not leave any witnesses.

Seriously though, i leave them. I do try and think about where i put them though. I like a spot where they can be hidden if at all possible. 

[anvil]

A new term for me, but I use them all the time. On railings, as an example, because they are forged each picket, scroll, newel post etc is marked as to where it lives. I always hide them or place them in a discrete location. 

I mark my hardies with a centerpunch mark so I know which side goes where. Hardy holes are often not square, so the mark indicates best fit. 

I've done some iron restoration, but I have never come across any witness marks, but on these projects I have added my own. 

I might add, when using rivets and mortise and tenons I take my project apart quite often and would be lost without them.

[Frosty]

Deliberately leaving marks as an indication of being hand made is not the mark of good craft it's an affectation.  A marketing ploy at one time used to make machine made products LOOK hand made that has become a false indicator. Unfortunately some makers deliberately leave work unfinished thinking its somehow more authentic. 

Leaving witness marks on finished work would be like buying a tailored suit and expecting to see chalk marks and pins so it LOOKED tailored. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[George N. M.]

I would say that Frosty is correct in an ideal world.  Sometimes witness marks are eliminated by the process, e.g. when punching regularly spaced holes the punch marks are eliminated by the punching.  Sometimes they are hidden on the finished product such as when you are making a tight spiral and the mark gets rolled up into the spiral and is hidden.  Sometimes they can be placed inconspicously and will not be noticed without very close examination.  I have no problems with leaving those.  Basically, I try to avoid using any witness marks that will be obvious when the piece is finished.

However, they are sometimes close to impossible to easily remove, particularly from a finished object such as a completed spiral.  Or removal would leave a mark more obvious than the original witness mark such as a hammer dent or a ground/filed out place.

Some of it, like many other things, depends on experience, knowing how deep a punch or chisel mark to use as a mark that you can see when the metal is hot but is not obvious on the finished piece.  Also, experience assists in knowing how and where to place a mark.  In the example of regularly placed puched holes it is better to use punch marks in the center of the piece where they will be erased by the punching than chisel marks along the edge which will survive.

And sometimes witness marks can be incorporated into decorative designs to diguise them.  The primary use of this is not in blacksmithing but tatooing where an old and now inappropriate tat can be camouflaged by over tattooing a new design.  (and, no, I have never had to do this personally but I have seen it done well on other folk. ;-)

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

Good points all George. I was referring more to leaving marks that can be removed, hidden or camouflaged to indicate hand made. A steel ruler or calipers can replace witness marks entirely in some instances.  

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

What are these marks you speak of? I have not used them, except for complicated pieces.

[Daswulf]

Whiteness marks I know of are in working on cars, knowing if someone had been there before. Say turning bolts or previous work/repairs.

I imagine he means hammer marks and slightly less refined forgings. 

I go either way on this. It depends on what I am forging and what I am charging vs. What someone wants. 

It all depends. Some people love the rougher forged, and some like refined. 

In the spectrum of customer/consumer view it all varies. What does the person paying the bill want/like.

[George N. M.]

I have always know "witness marks" as being the marks you make on a work piece to determine placement of something like a hole every 6" or where to place a bend.  On wood you can use a pencil, etc. but on hot metal you need to use a punch or chisel mark so that you can see it when the metal hot.

There is a similar term in surveying when you can't place a marker because of topography, e.g. it falls in a lake or on the side of a cliff.  The offset marks are known as "witness marks or corners."  They may be marked with something like, "The true section corner of Section 1, 2,5, & 6 of T. X N, R. Y W. is located 154.56 feet on a bearing of 90* 22' 00" True from this point."  You will see them marked on maps with a WC.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

As George says. A punch or chisel mark can be felt for exact placement at heat as well as being visible. A chisel mark is especially useful for precision cuts with the hardy, you can feel the hardy's edge drop into the chisel cut so you can get close to micrometer precision.

My Father used a different name I can't recall. <sigh>

Frosty The Lucky.

[Gazz]

Refinement of the finished product was the norm for stuff in the shop I worked in.  Careful grinding to remove gross hammer marks and to create chamfers was almost always done, refined like fine jewelry.   Witness marks, such as a punch mark to locate a bend or other alignment or to identify mating parts were typically not removed.  Discussion of the level of refinement and witness marks was a frequent topic.  Do folks who view the work really appreciate that extra effort required to refine it it?  Is it really necessary for the piece to be successful?  Witness marks were left  for viewers who might understand what they were for.

[anvil]

I use them most all the time. Especially when doing matched pieces. Take a simple taper and simple scroll finial for example, Its literally impossible to match two scrolls if they start with a different mass and are tapered to the different lengths. Even small differences become pretty visible when they are close together. I mark length on the side of my anvil and center punch where the taper starts on the parent stock. The center punch gives me, close enough for me, the same mass on all tapers, and then forging that mass to the length marked on my anvil gives me matched lengths. now you are about 90% work done for matching your scrolls. When layout becomes second nature, might as well do it all the time. You only get better and quicker with practice. A right angle bend takes 3 marks. one on the inside edge and one on each leg that has the extra upset length added in. 

Cost of job doesn't work for me, quality in an "S" hook is no different than in a gate or railing. 

I always found it funny when going to the steel yard and asking for the 20' lengths to be cut in half. They always asked how close to half. I wondered what they didn't understand about "half". Or what was their coefficient of error and could they hit it within a foot? Or did they charge more for right on the money,,,

A good way to hide them on a scroll is to mark lightly on an edge. Even when the scroll is done, its pretty easy to lightly add to the champfer at that spot, or even leave that one spot with no champfer and after your scroll is done, blend in that champfer. Also, a light mark on the edge of a piece to be scrolled will often disappear when the scroll is finished.

I don't leave it up to the customer, leaving blemishes degrades quality, and leaving reference marks are, in my opinion, blems. 

I've never used the term witness marks in this case. To me they are layout or reference marks or points meant only for me. I have seen where in mechanics, a mark is made because the part is taken apart on the job often because of wear, it must go back in the exact place. 

[Frosty]

Marks to make sure parts are returned to the correct position are what we called "match marks" and there are usually one on each piece. 

Agreed, "how close to half" is one of those question that made me wonder how hard it was to get a job there, so I asked. The yard guy takes his tape to several sticks in different racks and darn if they weren't 20', every one was between 2"-6" longer. He pointed to a different rack of stock and says those are all 21' sticks but it was the expensive material like drill rod, Stress proof, key stock, etc. 

If you ask for exactly half you get two say 10'1" to 10'6" "halves and seeing as I always calculated my cut patterns to maximize usability of the rems, one 10' piece and one 11' piece was way better for me.

"About half" means they cut to the 10' stop and the extra is on the other "half." 

Maximizing rems is a fabricator thing. At least if you're buying your own steel.

Quality work is a personal thing, I chamfered corners, ground torch cuts, etc., visible or not. I have a stock answer for all the times guys have said, "Why do that, nobody'll know." I will. After a while everybody who knew me, knew. I never had a weld fail on the drill crew, not ONE. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[TastefullyPeenedIronWorks]

These are all such good and diverse responses.  I can honestly see the point each one of you is making.  To be entirely fair, it really sounds as though the decision to refine the work to a point in which it bears no manufacturing marks is at both the discretion of the craftsman/woman and the client.  I don’t consider leaving unintentional hammer marks on a piece a witness mark so much as sloppy/lazy workmanship. 

[Rojo Pedro]

On 7/18/2022 at 9:51 AM, anvil said:

. A right angle bend takes 3 marks. one on the inside edge and one on each leg that has the extra upset length added in. 

My Anvil, Can you please elaborate?  I have practicing squares lately and assume they might be here?

Thanks

[Rojo Pedro]

That was Mr. Anvil. Oops

[anvil]

Lol, Nice!

What I meant is to forge a right angle bent to dimension, you need 3 reference marks. To dimension means when you are done, both legs are at the correct length.  I will do one bend for simplicity.  All my reference marks are on the inside edge of the angle. you need 1 to determine where the inside angle is, and one downstream from this one a measurable length plus half the thickness of material for the upset on each leg. If you know the final length of both legs, and they are easy to measure hot, then you can cut the bar to length and only mark the center where the finished bend is. But, in this case, you still have 3 reference marks. Instead of 3 center punch marks, two reference points are the ends of your bar and the third is where the bend is. 

For two right angle bends, you know the finished length from inside to inside of the two bends. Add half the thickness for each bend or 2x 1/2 the thickness for the total extra. I think your material is 1/2" sq above and lets say the finished ID is 6". Then 6"+1/2" is your start length between the two unfinished bends. How you lay out can differ with people, so I will give my way. As a general rule, all my layout starts from the center, not an end, of my parent stock. So in your example above I would figure my total length of parent stock. (3x6")+(4x1/4")=18"+1"=19" total for parent stock. Then I would cut to length then find the center and make a mark. Then measure 3-1/4" on each side of this and mark. No marks needed on the outer edge because the bitter ends are the reference marks. If these legs were say 18", then I would do two more marks at 3-1/4"( or whatever you choose) outboard from the two marks for the angle bends. Then I would do each bend one at a time using my reference points. Final check and adjustment would be to check center of bend to center of bend and center of bend to bitter end of now finished piece. 

If I were to make a box, I would lay it out as above but with two more right angle bends and associated reference marks. If I were to forge weld to close it up, I add nothing,,, zero,,, extra material for the forge weld. The bitter ends would be to dimension. Both leg lengths, in out example, would be 3-1/4" start or 3" from the ID of each finished rt angle bend. Then upset and make your two scarfs. Forge weld and check center to center between ID of both rt angle bends until you draw out to 6" total and done.  When done the crossection around the FW should be 1/2".  Lol, thats the final challenge.  And, of course, the real beauty of this project is in its simplicity. Its just a simple square box.   

 

 

 

 

[Frosty]

Mr. Anvil Oops . . . Reminds me of the song "Alley Oop,"oop   oop   oop oop.     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P05FSbjgWyI&ab_channel=Foofsmom

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Rojo Pedro]

Thanks Anvil,

That is very good info, I will try another one like above but built to specific dimensions. 

[anvil]

As simple is at is, I forgot something, so Heres a pic to show step 1 to finish.

From the bottom: 1 cut parent stock to length and lay out reference marks.

Center: 2: upset and forge scarfs. Forge all angle bends. scroll. Forgeweld. Do scarfs first because its easiest when they are at the ends of a straight bar.

notice there are two different sized tulips. The larger is for the straight run rails and the smaller are for the stair rails.

Most important, If you can forge a right angle bend, you can forge an any angle bend.

[TastefullyPeenedIronWorks]

Anvil,

they look Like Baby Yoda 

[Rojo Pedro]

Theres a lot of work in that picture, amazing really. 

[anvil]

It was a great project. about 80' of railing plus a couple balcony pieces. My purpose, besides showing off a bit,,,  is to show what can be done by adding forged right angle bends to dimension to your bag of tricks. Francis Whitaker did a screen door for Leon Uris that was based on Indian geometrical design featuring right angle bends. There is a guy on some of the facebook blacksmith sites who does forged iron art and he too does very creative geometrical 3 dimensional works out of basically 1/2" square stock and forged right angle bends to dimension. I have pics of his work and name somewhere if you are interested and its ok to post here. Sometimes, but rarely, you can spot a reference mark he missed and didn't remove

[Stash]

That sounds kinda like Peter Brasspenninx (sp?) of Phyre Forge. He does some real mind bending stuff.

Steve