George N. M. Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 Shaina: One of the problems with a ground forge, which was used for millennia, is having to get up and down from it. You may be able to place the anvil on the ground too but that is still IMO an awkward position to work. I don't know how flexible or fit you are but not many folk can do the necessary up and down movements on a regular and consistent basis. If you are an athlete or dancer for your day job you may be able to pull it off but otherwise you will probably find standing is a more comfortable work position. That said, can you get metal hot and forge it in the set up you have illustrated? Yes. Is it the optimum arrangement? IMO, no. You may want to use it because it is quick and available to see if you want to improve in the craft but I think you will want to upgrade pretty quickly. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 Another option with a ground forge and anvil is to dig a hole for your feet. For example: https://youtu.be/kWgESobxudc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shainarue Posted July 19, 2022 Author Share Posted July 19, 2022 Man, that's intense. I love the basic of it all. My wife lost her mind when I dug the trench though. I don't think I can get away with digging more holes unless it's one I plan to sleep in, lol 4 hours ago, George N. M. said: You may want to use it because it is quick and available to see if you want to improve in the craft but I think you will want to upgrade pretty quickly. This is exactly the thought. As for my fitness, well... I'm not creaky yet but the stiffness is there. I'll adjust it as needed, which I assume will be fairly regularly at first. Should be able to start as soon as this Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 Always able to build a JABOD in a junked gas grill to have a "covered" forge to hide it from neighbors...or the spouse... And yes I'm in a steel wool relationship; my wife has been teaching spinning for over 50 years and I have been smithing for over 40 years (and in the SCA since the Fall of 1978.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 The second pic is what I was describing but a JABOD is so easy to make it's hard to imagine you not being able to come up with a shallow box or as Thomas suggests regularly an old BBQ. You can find old BBQs on the curb on trash day or back alleys, ditches, etc. If you wish to use your original concept it'll work but it needs a fire back or the blast will blow fire and heat along long stock heating the handle end more than conduction will. You WANT the part in your hand cool, Yes? To make a fire back just lay a couple fire bricks on their edges of ends across the end of the trench maybe 4"-6" from the end of the trench. This will contain the fire to the stock feed long pieces from the side across the end of the existing trench. The real upside of doing it this way is you can fill most of that long trench in. You only need a few inches of the end to make more than enough fire to work in. You can only work a few inches at a time under the hammer, heating more damages the steel to no good. Heating a long section to twist or scroll is easily done by passing the length back and forth in the fire. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shainarue Posted July 20, 2022 Author Share Posted July 20, 2022 Hmmm ... Maybe I was just overthinking the above-ground JABODs. Now that you & Thomas have both mentioned using grills, I probably could find one that's rusted out and on a curb somewhere. And rusted out won't really matter since I'm going to pack a bunch of clay dirt in there anyway, right? Also now I'm seeing more of the merits of squaring up my shoulders and taking on the truly frightening shed out back to set this all up in. It is full of wasp nests (I'm allergic to wasp stings, fever & lots of swelling) and a dirt/gravel floor covered with warped plywood that we're pretty sure some critters have taken up quarters in :shudder: We only use it to store the gas grill. Literally - that's the only thing in there since our lawn equipment was stolen and now it's locked with a bike cable lock. It would be much more convenient to open the shed, wheel out the forge and mount the anvil just inside the doors. Even more convenient in the winter months! So I suppose the trench digging was just good ole' head clearing sweaty manual labor. I have a coworker bringing me a section of 1/2 pipe - and if I need bigger than that then I can go back to this storage locker sale I was at this afternoon. Just a bunch of junk but I did see some 2" pipe in a corner that I could probably get for a buck or free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 Welcome to the club, it's easy to overthink things when you're first starting a craft. Everybody does it, it's a human being thing. 3/4" - 1" is a good size tuyere pipe. (Air blast pipe.) And don't overdo the blower, a blow drier supplies more than enough for a charcoal forge. Manual mattress inflaters work very well and you can find them cheap at the end of camping season garage, yard, etc. sales. Iven in early spring regular price at WallyWorld in Alaska was running under $20 and under $10 on the closeout table starting any time now here. 12v DC blower type mattress inflaters make WAY too much air! However they are handy and often freebies at fall garage, yard, etc. sales I had them on my buy it list if they were cheap enough, the most I spent was $5.00, then I started looking for them and haven't spent more than $1 since. I've owned one for a good 30 years but bought that one to inflate mattresses and my air raft. I even used it a couple times repairing things while building the house but didn't start buying them AS forge blowers till years later. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 You will need some way to control the amount of air going to the fire. With a hand crank blower you adjust the flow by how much and fast you crank. With an electric blower you need either a rheostat to speed up or slow down the blower or some sort of valve to close or open the path of the air to the fire. The commonest is a gate valve (aka butterfly valve) which is similar to the damper in a stove pipe. It is just a disk inside the air pipe which is rotated to block or open the flow. There are other methods but that is the simple way. Too much air can blow your fire apart or waste fuel. Too little air and your metal won't heat up or will only get to forging temperature slowly. With your shed get the kind of wasp spray which shoots a stream 10' or so, not a spray or mist. Hit the nests from as far away as possible and then let them die off for an hour or so. Then make sure you have hit all the nests before starting to move things. Also, it is a very good idea to invest in a fire extinguisher if you are forging inside. Sheds are flammable, the lawn and dirt are pretty much fire proof. Good luck. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shainarue Posted July 21, 2022 Author Share Posted July 21, 2022 3 hours ago, George N. M. said: Sheds are flammable Metal shed, but in a safety nerd so yes, there will be a fire extinguisher. There are some things I don't cheap out on, lol. I already have hearing protection and welding gloves. Might be awhile until I can afford proper footwear but until then, I do at least have close toed shoes. 4 hours ago, Frosty said: a blow drier Was heading to the thrift store tomorrow to hopefully find one for a few bucks. 4 hours ago, Frosty said: 3/4" - 1" is a good size tuyere pipe. (Air blast pipe.) My brother might have something, I'll ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 Welding gloves aren't really much good blacksmithing unless you're using a propane forge with it's "dragon' breath." Coal or charcoal doesn't don't have much external flame and you can feel the radiated heat from 3,000f burning coals quite a distance away. What you'll find more useful is the feel and grip you lose to anything between you and the stock and tools. The thicker the gloves the less you can feel and the harder it is to hold onto thing well. Good leather boots or shoes are important PPE, sans laces are best and synthetic sneakers are the W O R S T. Synthetics melt, stick and deep fry you if something hot touches it. Yeah, 3/4"-1" pipe is everywhere, a little larger is fine, it's easy to block the fire end if necessary. NOT PLATED! Galvy or worse chromed pipe gives off toxic fumes if it gets hot enough and the purpose of a forge is to get steel WAY HOTTER than that. Ease up on quoting people you're talking to, just a name is enough connection unless there is something specific or it's something you're replying to from the past. Iforgeiron has some 60,000 subscribed members in about 150 countries around the world. Many don't have broadband access and pay for data. We try to take it easy on them by holding bandwidth down where we can. It's not like you're in trouble, it's really common for new IFI members, the place has a learning curve is all. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shainarue Posted July 21, 2022 Author Share Posted July 21, 2022 re: quoting - will do. I knew not to quote entire posts but didn't realize the little quote snippets took extra bandwidth. I'll definitely keep that in mind. I suppose I assumed the welding gloves were necessary since all my classes were with a propane forge and thus required. That's awesome news to know they aren't needed for coal, as yes - they are quite bulky and hard to feel through. (I only used them on the holding hand, not the hammering hand - unlike others in the class - it just seemed logical to me.) Shoes: hmmm... the only non-synthetic footwear I have is leather sandals (Birkenstocks - a gift from way back when) or two pair of wool shoes. Neither would protect my toes from falls but the wool ones would safer if a hot flick came into contact with it. I'll start setting up alerts for sales on leather boots - I assume steel toe if I have a propensity to dropping things, lol I already have the grill - just working on how to transport it home. We actually had gas one behind our office that hasn't been used since 2007 so the boss said I could take it - just leave the propane for him to take home, lol. No prob, Bob! Oh, whoa - I'm a space cadet. I just googled 'steel toe leather work shoes' and the first thing that showed up was Doc Martens. My wife has a pair from the 2000's. They'll be too small for me but for now ... they'll be something. This is of course assuming I can convince her to give them up, LOL. She never wears them since they're so heavy and not really "in fashion" anymore. I think it's more a souvenir of her younger days, lol For that matter, I might be able to find some leather shoes in a thrift store and just get some good insoles to make up for the existing footbed imprint (and spray with disinfectant, of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoGoodWithUsernames Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 Welcome! Glad to see you jumping in and so readily willing to listen to the advice from these fine folks. It is good advice to have. As you get up and running be sure to post some photos of your setup and as you start making stuff. We all like photos and a lot of the folks on here can give good tips on layout and planning of a work area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWISTEDWILLOW Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Shainarue said: spray with disinfectant Most definitely!!! ya never know what kinda trench foot, jungle rot, flesh eating, stank undiscovered fungus unknown to science that the previous inhabitant of said used boots might’ve had!!! personaly I’d rather save up an spring for new boots then spend six months an a thousand bucks on tough actin tinactin fighting off someone else’s foot disease! But that’s just me! Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 Good call on the Birkenstocks and while a couple pair of wool socks would help keep hot stuff that fell on your feet from burning . . . much, stepping on something HOT could be unpleasant. You could do damage dropping an hex key wrench on your instep. I don't wear steel toes but I don't recommend them one way or another. I was a welder fabricator for quite a while and steel toes wear right through if you spend much time on your knees so even sweaty feet gets you shocks. Phenolic toes don't wear through as fast and provide pretty good protection. Also, starting out you probably won't be working on heavy projects, your hammer will probably be the heaviest thing you'll be handling, so you have time to find what suits you. Comfortable footwear is IMPORTANT! And make SURE your anvil is mounted solid. Ditto Billy. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 Shainarue, a story in passing re trench forges. Bob Patrick, a world renowned blacksmith, a founding member of BAM and BOA, started out as a youngster. As his story goes, he wanted to start blacksmithing, so his father told him to make his own forge and gather up his own tools. Bob did just that; he dug a trench in his yard and made a ground forge. Since those early beginnings, Bob has become one of the best known in the world. Sky's the limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shainarue Posted July 21, 2022 Author Share Posted July 21, 2022 While I do have wool socks as well, I was saying I have wool SHOES. I have two pair. One with laces and a rubber sole and one without laces and a thin leather sole (more like suede). I wear them all the freaking time - SO comfortable. I really dislike wearing shoes with support or any thick sole to speak of. You're correct that starting out I will definitely not be working on heavy projects. Mostly 1/2" or 5/8" 1018 or A36 to start with. After watching Daniel work on his coal forge (in a wheel rim) and the little bits of coal that sometimes jumped ship during the process, I saw firsthand why it's important to keep the toes covered. I'll have to do some looking to see if I can find some kind of option that gives me the comfort I prefer with the protection I require. I wore the wool shoes in all three classes I took (granted, it was a propane forge) so maybe that's fine until I start working with bigger stuff. I don't want footwear to be the thing that is holding me up from getting started, LOL. If I save a twenty from each paycheck, I might be able to get a decent pair of leather work shoes within 3-4 months. Arkie, thanks for sharing that story! To infinity - and beyond! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 Ah, my mistake I don't usually think of wool shoes when talking about footwear. My bad. You smell rubber soles when you step on HOT stuff, I like rubber soles around the shop. You can buy welding spats to protect your feet from falling objects. The link below is to leather welding spats, there are a couple aluminum and steel ones shown. A search for "steel welding spats" or maybe just "welding spats" will show you something you like. You can make temporary spats from an old pair of Levi's. Frosty The Lucky. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=welding+spats+for+shoes&t=chromentp&iax=images&ia=images Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shainarue Posted July 21, 2022 Author Share Posted July 21, 2022 I LOVE this idea! Excellent. So I can keep wearing my favorite shoes and just cover up with some spats. I have plenty of old Levi's because I SWEAR I'm gonna make something out of them (lol) but looking at the Google results - they really aren't that expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 Steel toe flip flops? I don't wear steel toes as I don't drop anything heavy enough to need them anymore; been decades since I dropped an anvil and even then I just got out of the way! Currently I wear German combat boots; bought 4 pair brand new, (still in box with tags), for US$3 a pair at a flea market near Fort Bliss TX about 9 years ago and am on pair #3 currently. If you want to use cloth spats you can soak them in a borax solution for fire proofing and it actually helps clean when you throw them in the wash. Wearing a glove on the hammer hand promotes tendonitis; so glad you were smart enough to not do so! I tend to use tongs when I need to hold hot items so generally no glove on the off hand either and this is with propane and coal and charcoal forges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shainarue Posted July 22, 2022 Author Share Posted July 22, 2022 This is probably going to sound insanely naive of me, but I truly did not even consider the toxicity of coal fumes with using a natural heat source forge. Will I be okay since I have it set up outside or will I still need to use a respirator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 You could mix up some polyester resin and using layers of Levi lay up hard spats. Or make harache spats. Not the lame, new fangled Nike Haraches, the old school ones with soles cut from an old tire and leather straps saddle stitched on. I think it was steel belted tires killed the good haraches. <sigh> We were typing at the same time! You are SO going to fit in here. You don't want to breath any kind of smoke if you can avoid it but usually if you just stay out of the worst of it you'll be okay. Once you get a good heart going, "coked" the first couple scoops so you have a good forge fire burning, it doesn't smoke much at all. You'll be making more coke as you use it by raking it in around the main fire and the flames will burn the smoke. It's a lot cleaner than it sounds but adding a smoke hood and stack to forges wasn't an accident. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shainarue Posted July 22, 2022 Author Share Posted July 22, 2022 This is probably going to sound insanely naive of me, but I truly did not even consider the toxicity of coal fumes with using a natural heat source forge. Will I be okay since I have it set up outside or will I still need to use a respirator? Frosty, I just purchased a pair of spats on Amazon for 17 bucks. Not free but if I say I'm gonna make them then I'll never start because I'll be waiting to make the spats, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 Generally, I would say that you don't have to worry about coal smoke any more than any other kind of smoke. As long as your forging area is not filling up with it to make you cough and make your eyes water you are OK. Once you start your fire it is pretty smokeless. As you pull coal fowards the center of the fire it is baking and turning into coke. The volitiles driven off by the coking process are burned in the fire. The actual fire is coke burning. That said, more ventilation is better than less. In a tight space with restricted ventilation any fire, either a coal/charcoal or propane forge, can be starved for oxygen and start producing carbon monoxide gas as a result on incomplete combustion, a BAD thing. Many of us have CO detectors in our shops. Mine has never gone off. If your shed is a garden type shed with only a door and no other ventilation I would be hesitant to have any kind of an oxygen consuming activity inside without a chimney to carry away smoke and gases. You can always have the forge right outside the door and the anvil inside and stand in the doorway to heat the metal outside and then turn and forge inside. Best of both worlds. There was a time when I did this when I was renting a garage for a forging and storage area. It is good for you to have safety thoughts like this. Also, don't obsess about footwear too much, particularly as a newbie. It is rare to drop anything hot on your feet and if you drop something hot like a cut off hot end just be aware of it and don't step on it. One thing NOT to do is have pull on boots (like cowboy or engineer boots) and wear them with your pant legs inside the boots. That is a trap for hot things to fall into and you cannot get them off fast enough to avoid a bad burn. I have seen guys get serious burns like this on the top of their feet and ankles this way. Always wear your pant legs on the outside of open top boots. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shainarue Posted July 22, 2022 Author Share Posted July 22, 2022 That was exactly my intended setup. The grill has wheels so I figured I'd store it in the shed and just pull out when working. And I'm intending to mount the anvil just inside the door. Though I was also weighing the benefits of having it outside the shed as well. Better lighting and better breeze. But then also out in the cold in winter and needing to keep covered to protect from the elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWISTEDWILLOW Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 I know imma little bit south of you but I think the weather is probably comparable, But my smithy is open air and with trees an wisteria for a roof, I use a job box to store my hammers, tongs, hardies, chisels, punch’s ect.. during wet weather, but all the big stuff like my forges, post vises, anvils and blowers stay permanently outside, I just keep everything greased, oiled and wiped down with oil, I forge using bituminous coal and like George says the smoke clears out just fine once you get up an goin, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now